Buffy the Vampire Slayer : Vampires using witchcraft

I have been really sick lately and have been rewatching some BTVS to boost my spirits. So basically my question arose after thinking about the alternate vampire version of Willow in season 3. If vampires were not formidable enough, one that was also a witch would be pretty intimidating. I don't believe that this topic was ever discussed in the show. I know that vampires like spike don't trust magic, but what about vampires going full blown into the craft? What are your guys thoughts?

I have read imdb boards for years but just recently decided I should make an account, thanks for any responses.

In terms of the television series, Buffy herself only went up against one noteworthy vampire who used the magicks: Dracula. Unless Chaos Bleeds is considered canon, she doesn't face any noteworthy magical vampires after. But other Slayers have fought Witch Vampires who provided a great deal of trouble.

My theory for why more vampires don't cast spells is because they're either a.) not good at it or b.) have no interest since they already come with their own powers.

In terms of point a, a great deal of magick requires pulling power from sources greater than one's self. Praying to Higher or Lower Beings, funneling power from other dimensions, ect. This requires an ability to connect. Vampires, in themselves, are anomalies that don't belong. The magical community sees them as little more than vermin. Thus, I imagine Gods, Powers that Be, and Old Ones alike are not fans of their being. So, why lend them any power at all? I mean, they don't even have souls to bargain with for the really dark stuff. Even pulling power from sources like the Earth would prove difficult. The Earth itself barely wants them here. Pulling power from the Sun?? The Sun kills them. The Moon?? It's light is tied to the Sun. Stars? Same problem. At best, a vampire would be talented at Blood Magick but why use it when you can drink it?

I'd imagine the loophole to this would be witches who are tied to the magicks prior to being sired. They've already proven themselves worthy so they get a pass. Vamp Giles and Dracula can still use spells and potions because they could before being damned. Angel can use magick because he has a soul.

Thanks for the response you make some great points that I hadn't thought of. Plus I totally forgot about Dracula hahaha. I especially think the angle of why God's and such would not want to help them because of their lack of a soul intriguing.

Going along with some of your thoughts perhaps the longer vampires are around the more prone to exploring the dark arts they become. For example The Master similar to dracula seemed to possess power beyond the typical vampire, even disregarding his more pronounced bat - like features.

I also agree on the point of the preexisting magic users who become vampires.

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Going along with some of your thoughts perhaps the longer vampires are around the more prone to exploring the dark arts they become. For example The Master similar to dracula seemed to possess power beyond the typical vampire, even disregarding his more pronounced bat - like features.

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HmmI think you're certainly onto something here. But, the example you used may not apply.

http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/The_Master

The Master of the Order of Aurelius (or Heinrich Joseph Nest, as he was once known) is a special vampire in and of himself. He was sired not by another vampire or even a Turok-Han. He was sired by a Demon Lord known as Archaeus.

http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Archaeus

Now, it's not known if Archaeus is of Maloker (the Old One who created the Turok-Han) but I theorize that he is what made the Demon Lord. Sort of like a "side project" or means of carrying on his legacy. Regardless, it should be noted that Archaeus comes with natural magical powers. Presumably, Heinrich would also come with an ability to use magicks.

Still, as I said before, I think you're on to something about older vamps having access to magicks. I mean, if they've been around long enough, I'm sure they'd earn the respect of an Old One or two. Further, the Order of Aurelius was known to be a cult who worshiped the Old Ones. So, perhaps simply being accepted into their ranks was enough to be allowed to access the magicks. Or atleast have access to texts that allow vampires to do so. I'll do some research on other vampire masters and see what I can dig up.

http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Lucien_(vampire)

This may be a good angle to explore. I'm not sure if Lucien had access to the magicks before or after his siring. BUT, he was already very old before joining the Order of Aurelius. I think chronicles of his siring and times before joining the Master may be the key to proving your theory

Further, I think finding accounts of Aurelius himself may be of use. Like Heinrich, he was sired in the 12th Century. Thus, they'd be around the same age. Perhaps my assumption of Archaeus is incorrect and these vampire master's old age is what allowed them to access magicks.

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I also agree on the point of the preexisting magic users who become vampires.

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To go alittle further, I imagine we don't see many of them because what vampire WANTS to go up against a witch. Even if he/she is stronger than the magic the witch wields, it's still a difficult and bothersome kill. Like a lion trying to hunt a bear for food. There's perfectly good powerless, non-magicy gazelle right over there!! If I'm a newly sired vamp or even an experienced vampire master, I'd be hesitant to go after prey that hurl fire balls at my very flammable face.

But, as we see with Dracula and some vamps from the comics, it's not unheard of. Witches are human too. Thus, like a Vampire Slayer, they slip up. So, we get vampires with extra perks.

Dammit Loui, with a response like this, how's a guy supposed to contradict or complain about it??


"You can lead a hearse to water, but you can't make it sink." The Cat

If it'll make you feel better, I can give you a 500-page dissertation on why Buffy/Riley is the bestest best relationship everty evers with sugar on top.

I teach a lecture on it in "My Fanfiction is TOTALLY Canon, DAMMIT 101"

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Dammit Loui, with a response like this, how's a guy supposed to contradict or complain about it??

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That's gotta be the shortest post you ever made!
Loui

I'd expound on the Master's ability with my own pet theory, based on a seemingly incongruent line from "The Harvest," where he talks about his vessel being "My blood is your blood, my soul is your soul." Obviously, this was made before they determined Angel was a good vampire, and that the reason he was good was because he had a soul - but what if the Master did have a soul?

I actually think it would be more interesting if that wasn't an apocryphal line, but rather something that adds a little depth to the character; making him that much more evil, to be who he is in spite of having a soul.
I even picture some encounter between the Boxer Rebellion and "The Harvest," that would explain why Angel would be skittish about the Master, in contrast to his flippant regard for him after Darla first introduced him (and in the same vein, how the Master would change his opinion of him in "Angel,")

It's pure fan wanking, but the way I see it goes is some type of conflict between Angel and the Master over Darla; as the Master wants to bring her back into his fold, and under his heel, while Angel has his usual soft spot for her. As bad she was, he knows she deserves better than to be the Master's lapdog.
Angel might offer Darla a chance at redemption, by suggesting they find a way to give her a soul; something that is certainly met with abhorrence, but might still be preferable to some other alternative she's facing. It becomes a moot point when the Master reveals that a soul doesn't make one a better person, or capable of redemption - for he has had a soul for many centuries, and he had found the fortitude to overcomes such a "disadvantage".
The Master concludes the conflict by shooting Darla in the head; a violent act that's difficult for Angel to witness, because he appreciates the pain Darla must suffer for it, but both he and Mastering knowing that it won't kill her, and that she'll still manage to heal; though she might not be 100% the same after that. The Master wins, vowing to nurse her back to health, something Angel can't due without compromising his principals; they slink back to their respective corners.

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I can give you a 500-page dissertation on why Buffy/Riley is the bestest best relationship everty evers with sugar on top.

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No doubt entitled "Myths, lies and other things blatantly untrue"?


"You can lead a hearse to water, but you can't make it sink." The Cat

I never noticed that line before by the Master, or should I say, took it literally. But this raises a great moral conundrum if such a despicable being is willingly so evil. I assume he was probably just using flowery language but all the same it is thought provoking at the least.

Going along with this topic it got my gears spinning. Do we know of any slayers who are witches. My knowledge of the comics is more spotty, so Im speaking purely from the shows mythos. I have read all of the spike comics and bits and pieces of After the Fall etc..

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Going along with this topic it got my gears spinning. Do we know of any slayers who are witches. My knowledge of the comics is more spotty, so Im speaking purely from the shows mythos. I have read all of the spike comics and bits and pieces of After the Fall etc..

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As far as Slayers from the official line (Faith on up), there were none of note. Most Potentials are discovered early (some as early as 2, like Kendra). These girls are trained ONLY in physical combat. Thus, there Watchers never allowed the use of magick. Keep in mind that magick is also seen as a form of self-empowerment. A Watcher would be hard-pressed to allow his charge to become self-reliant. Further, magick can be dangerous. Imagine if a Potential became addicted to her own magicks. Now, imagine if that Potential was called. We'd have a worse threat than Faith on our hands!! Other Potentials, like Buffy, lived their lives not knowing of the supernatural, at all. So, at best, they'd believe in magick but never know how to access it.

I'd imagine that early on in the line, SOME Slayers did cast spells but none were practicing witches. Keep in mind that there are demons that cannot be slain by physical means. A vanquish or curse is the only way. I imagine a Watcher usually handles this threat but a Slayer casting a spell wouldn't be unheard of for more dangerous threats. Like we see with Buffy, their increased willpower allows for successful spells but their inclination for "punch-kick combos" is a bit stronger in them. Unless they learn of magick at an early age OR are natural-born witches like Tara and Amy, a Potential would be all slay, no pray.

But, as you stated, there IS evidence of "Mass Called" Slayers being witches. After Willow checked the All of the Above option on who gets to be the One Girl, Potentials who were also witches or seers got to be Slayers. They continued to practice the magicks while also honing their Slayer power. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Charmed, but imagine Slayers who strongly resembled Prue or Phoebe Halliwell. Very combat oriented but could quickly whip out a potion or spell in a pinch.

http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Retreat

That is the most notable account of Slayer-Witches I can think of. It may provide more info on them, if you need it. I haven't been keeping up with the comics as much anymore SO I don't think I'll be too much help in this category.

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I'd expound on the Master's ability with my own pet theory, based on a seemingly incongruent line from "The Harvest," where he talks about his vessel being "My blood is your blood, my soul is your soul." Obviously, this was made before they determined Angel was a good vampire, and that the reason he was good was because he had a soul - but what if the Master did have a soul?

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That is something important. I often feel a bit "iffy" when pulling theory from Season 1 as it seemed almost as much a "prototype" to the show as the movie. But, as shown with the movie still being considered canon, we must certainly still pull from Season 1. Especially lines like that that have so much impact on the story.

I could see your theory having a hand in why Spike became something resembling "good" despite not having a soul. He came from Drusilla, who came from Angelus, who came from Darla, who came Heinrich, who came from Archaeus. What if everyone in his line maintained their souls but in a more twisted fashion? A constant battle between their inner demon and barely intact soul might make them particularly wicked as they feel they have something to prove to themselves and others. As seen with Warren and Amy, sometimes truly horrible acts require having a bit of humanity mixed in. This gives the chaos and destruction of being evil something truly heinous: A reason. While the average demon is just doing what it was predetermined to by way of its own being, humans and creatures with a soul who do evil acts are truly vile because they CHOOSE to be horrible. And, as see with the Whirlwind, when they choose, there's an artistry to their evil that a common vampire is incapable of.

I personally always turn to my Dawn theory for why Spike is "good." When the monks made Dawn, they implanted false positive emotions of love in everyone around her so they'd protect her without question. This included a vampire who should be incapable of these emotions, thus creating one who acts like he has a soul but really doesn't. Being able to love generally means wanting to to do good things for that loved one. Since Dawn is Buffy, Spike wants to do good for both of them. Buffy is a champion. Spike wants to be one too.

BUT, I think your theory has a bit more bite considering there's an actual line to back it up. If Heinrich had a soul, who's to say the others didn't? Unless he quested for one, I'd assume others in his line would be allowed this "gift." What if Spike was just the first of Archaeus's line to accept he maintained his soul? He was ALWAYS capable of goodness. Heck, we see him show care for his mother despite being a vampire. This could also explain why Drusilla maintained her connection to the Powers that Be despite being a vampire master herself. Her soul kept her good enough to still remain "jacked in" to what visions she have should receive as their champion. It would also give reason to why Darla could learn to love Connor. It wasn't his soul she was feeling, but her own finally accepting that it was there all along. For Archaeus's line, having that little extra sliver of a soul made the particularly vicious. But, it also offered a small chance at redemption. The catch to this is that there was little to no chance of these vampires ever embracing that sliver of goodness in themwithout a bit of intervention. For some, it's stalking a little blonde ex-cheerleader. For others, it's the Powers that Be granting higher purpose.

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No doubt entitled "Myths, lies and other things blatantly untrue"?

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*searches for a means to "unfriend" on IMDB despite not knowing if IMDB has a friend function in the first place*

The ONLY 'ship more important than Ruffy is Willdelia)!!..if you're wondering where that came from, it's from a "What If" thread I came up with. Somehow, it ended up producing a very interesting and believable Fresh Prince of Bel Air crossover. I now ship Will and Cordelia almost as hard as Xander and Graham.

I kind of see it in a simpler light. It's like Willow says a few times throughout the series: magic has a basis in chemistry and physics. If I wasn't a good student in either one now, as a human, why would I have any interest or innate talent in it as a vampire?

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Formerly known as "Greenmandms"

I always wondered about the mystics in the Buffy comics, were they just friends of Willow or were they Slayers AND witches?

Dracula uses magic.

The Master also uses it, albeit only special fields - namely mind manipulation.

Obviously Dru kept her magic abilities, too.

My assumption would be mostly that vampires, on average, are of average intelligence and thus simply dont have the skill of somebody like Willow.


A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me.

I think Drusilla had psychic powers, which is different to magic. Same with the Master he seemed to have psychic powers.

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Going along with this topic it got my gears spinning. Do we know of any slayers who are witches. My knowledge of the comics is more spotty, so Im speaking purely from the shows mythos. I have read all of the spike comics and bits and pieces of After the Fall etc..

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I doubt any of the Watchers would allow Slayers or potential Slayers access to that information, it seemed like magic was very much their domain and they kept it to themselves. Buffy probably could have learnt some magic or witchcraft if she had wanted but never seemed interested. Although she did cast that one spell in season 5.

I am actually more surprised the writers of this show and 'Angel' never tried to have a vampire werewolf hybrid like they had in the 'Underworld' movies 'cause the idea of a vampire/werewolf sounds like it would be very powerful and might have made a good villain for Buffy or Angel to face at the end of a season.

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Make Same Sex Marriages Legal In Australia 'cause we deserve to have the same rights as everybody else and shouldn't be controlled by backwards people with outdated views.

Angel used magic in Becoming Part I and II in order to release Acathala. He wasn't very good at it and needed Giles' help but he was still capable of performing a powerful spell once he figured out how.

The reason more vampires don't use magic, I think can be summed up by Spike. "we like to talk tough and all.. I am going to destroy the world..blah blah but deep down we just want the simple pleasures of feeding on people, Manchester United etc". Ok that was a paraphrase, I can't find the real line.

But basically vampires really have no interest to increase their power, they are happy just hunting and feeding using traditional methods.

Angel performed magic several times, not just Angelus with Acathla.

Angel performed the living flame spell to disable the Glove of Myneghon, started the cleansing spell to remove Maude Pearson (then handed it over to Doyle with some quick instructions on Latin so he could deal with the apartment going crazy and Griff), performed the exorcism on Ryan, intended to do the spell to recorporealize the paranoia demon in the Hyperion Hotel in 1952 (though Wesley did it in 2000) and the spell to recorporealize Sahjhan that ended up fissuring dimensions in the Hyperion Hotel and allowed Connor to return with Holtz.

Spike did the du Lac spell to restore Drusilla's strength by using Angel.

Absalom's gang of vampires were intending to resurrect the Master with a sacrifice.

Basically, any spell that is some chanting in Latin, some ingredients or a sacrifice are perfectly capable of being performed by nearly anyone. It's the ones that need power to be funneled through someone or willed by a powerful witch/warlock that take more study. Even Xander could speak Latin and set a book on fire.