Buffy the Vampire Slayer : "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
Re: "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
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Was Buffy right in saying it wouldn't have been Ford in the drivers seat of his own body?
Buffy was clearly wrong. This has been proved many times on this show and on Angel.
Re: "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
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I would settle for a single example for that ? Angelus for example has nothing to do with Angel and is clearly a different person.
Buffy was clearly wrong. This has been proved many times on this show and on Angel.
A gentleman will not insult me, and no man not a gentleman can insult me.
Re: "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
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Angel said this to Buffy in Angel:
In the Buffyverse soul is mere conscience. This is proved on season 1 of Angel. Ryan didn't have a soul.
You have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done, and to care.
In the Buffyverse soul is mere conscience. This is proved on season 1 of Angel. Ryan didn't have a soul.
Re: "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
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But we know vampires are demons trapped in a human body.. When Angel's soul was restored he initially remembered nothing and was confused but then the memories came flooding back.. But he never actually experienced those memories, they are just part of his body.
Plus the demons that take over the body once the person is turned has no memories of it's own. So what usually happens is that the vampire is either the evil version of that person or they are the darker side (the shadow aspect) of their personality.
So once turned, the original human is not actually there but the demon does believe it was that person, as it has all their memories and is continuing on form when they were turned.
Plus the demons that take over the body once the person is turned has no memories of it's own. So what usually happens is that the vampire is either the evil version of that person or they are the darker side (the shadow aspect) of their personality.
So once turned, the original human is not actually there but the demon does believe it was that person, as it has all their memories and is continuing on form when they were turned.
Re: "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
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If they were simply memories, Angel would know that it hadn't been actually him that did it. Angel/Liam would have been no more than an victim of possession and the demon would be the one that had done it while Angel/Liam was either trapped in his body or in another plane.
But Angel never thinks like that. He constantly says "I", he stresses that he was the one that did it, because that's the truth.
And this pretty much has to be true for Angel's character to not look incredibly stupid. I mean, if it was true that it wasn't actually Angel in the "driver seat" but a demon, then Angel's whole repentance motivation makes little to no sense. It would mean that he had been nothing more than a victim of possession and that it wasn't actually him hurting people, but still acted like he did despite knowing better than that
In any case, Angel is not the only evidence. In the show "Angel", we see a human that was born without a soul. He functions perfectly and is perfectly sentient and aware of everything he just lacks any empathy or conscience. This proves beyond any doubt what the soul actually is in Buffyverse.
Also, Spike follows the lead of Angel and he never claims that anyone but himself did the things William, the Bllody did before getting a soul.
But Angel never thinks like that. He constantly says "I", he stresses that he was the one that did it, because that's the truth.
And this pretty much has to be true for Angel's character to not look incredibly stupid. I mean, if it was true that it wasn't actually Angel in the "driver seat" but a demon, then Angel's whole repentance motivation makes little to no sense. It would mean that he had been nothing more than a victim of possession and that it wasn't actually him hurting people, but still acted like he did despite knowing better than that
In any case, Angel is not the only evidence. In the show "Angel", we see a human that was born without a soul. He functions perfectly and is perfectly sentient and aware of everything he just lacks any empathy or conscience. This proves beyond any doubt what the soul actually is in Buffyverse.
Also, Spike follows the lead of Angel and he never claims that anyone but himself did the things William, the Bllody did before getting a soul.
Re: 'Lie To Me' + Vampire Enthusiasts
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Wouldn't want to be a vampire unless I was still in control and could choose too be a vegetarian.
So Buffy wasn't a bigot as most vamps don't chose on their own too drink none human blood unless forced too by a chip or a soul restored
So Buffy wasn't a bigot as most vamps don't chose on their own too drink none human blood unless forced too by a chip or a soul restored
Re: "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
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I think it's amusing that Buffy effectively predicted the Twilight culture; though I'm sure that series of novels and later movies didn't originate the romanticism of the genre.
It's an interesting mixed bag; on the one hand, given how they ultimately blurred the lines of good and evil with other demons - even making it a major theme in "New Moon Rising," and "That Old Gang of Mine," the idea of vampires being unequivocally evil becomes kind of quaint and overly simplistic. This is personified through Spike, who demonstrates the capacity to function as any other being capable of making his own choices, without whatever a "soul" is ultimately supposed to be, outside of a plot convenience. If that weren't true, then Spike shouldn't have been able to demonstrate any loyalty to Buffy or the Scoobies, or Dawn; and assaulting Buffy shouldn't have meant anything to him. There should be no circumstance to motivate any vampire to intentionally earn a soul, but he does it, and it's an effective plot point, because he's not a two dimensional character.
On the other hand, the far extreme of trying to humanize vampires pretty much is Twilight; or the concept stirred up among the enthusiasts in the bunker. I like the idea of vampires as dangerous, antagonistic monsters. As the series went on, they arguably became too human; especially the ones that were easier to kill. They became almost like Putties from Power Rangers, just some generic creature that popped up for some brief gymnastic fighting, tap to the chest, and *poof*.
I think that's why Angelus worked so well, because he could be disarming, appeal to all the romantic ideas of a vampire as being misunderstood, then take advantage of that on a psychological thrill level.
But that doesn't mean the human that was isn't in there; they've demonstrated throughout BtVS and AtS that it is very much a contiguous existence. They're altered, there's no question of that; and everyone uses the same common term to describe the process - turned. Liam was turned into a vampire, not replaced by one. William was turned, Harmony was turned; Darla was turned, dusted, brought back as human and turned again. In that last case, the persona remains effectively the same throughout. When Darla was brought back as human, she had a soul, but was still quintessentially Darla. When Spike earned his soul, he more keenly felt the weight and implications of everything he done, but he was still the same. He didn't go back using his old accent from when he was human; when he broke through his emotional barriers keeping him from giving his all in a fight, he had the same passion and fire as he ever had. The only changed his perspective, but his identity.
In contrast to Buffy's resurrection, her soul had memories her body didn't - because it was decomposing - but she could recall being in a higher realm, and everything else; neither Angel nor Spike had any extra sets of memories of their souls being anywhere else. There was a momentary state of confusion, like coming out from being under anesthesia, but the fog lifts; and they cannot differentiate their existence between before and after they had their souls, apart from how difference of the latter makes them feel about certain past deeds.
For Spike, his major story of season 9 is how a song sung to the infant William Pratt by his mother, effected Spike, and gave the First an in to brainwash him. But for Spike, that wasn't "William's mother", it was his, and it was when he was a baby; and he carried the weight of having to dust his own mother, after turning her into a vampire, and realizing the mistake in that. In spite of becoming a demon, and wanting to cut a bloody swath across Europe, he still had the same emotional ties to his mother that he always did; everything that defined him as a human, define him as a vampire.
And it wasn't just Spike; Dru was no different. Angel drove her insane before he turned her, and she stayed that way.
Angel began to correct Buffy about the influence of the person over the vampire, after Willow commented that her vamp-self seemed to be gay; starting to say that the human would determine that aspect, only to backtrack when Buffy shot him a look that he wasn't helping.
The best I can figure a soul to be, apart from a convenient McGuffin tossed out mid-season 1, when much of the mythos of the Buffy-verse had yet to be defined; is that, in a very simplistic, pseudo-psychological way, the soul is the Super-Ego in the human psyche. The bridge between the primal impulses of the ID, and rational, pain-pleasure response mechanism of the Ego. The Ego has also been depicted as ones own concept of self. The Super-Ego tries to balance these other influences, and can also incorporate concepts of morality and propriety. Without the influence of the super-ego, the other two forces of the psyche would run rampant, and become a twisted version of who they would be otherwise.
Angelus would seem to be an outlier; even with the encounter between the Judge and the other vampires, the bookworm-vampire, Spike and Dru all had some degree of stench of humanity, whereas Angelus didn't. It could simply be that it's because he's just recently been stripped of his soul, and hasn't been around enough to pick-up any trace, but in general this almost seems to be an aversion of his. In "I Only have Eyes for You," he's deeply put off by his experience being possessed, and wants to cleans himself of that feeling of humanity. He also took strong offense to Buffy making him feel human.
My premise is that Liam was the last person who should have ever become a vampire; because in spite of his acting out, drinking and gallivanting with women, deep down he just wanted his father pay attention to him and love him. He couldn't seem to live up to any positive standard, so he excelled at living down to the lower bar his father set for him. If his father thought he could only ever be a failure, then he'd be the best failure possible - but that's not necessarily who he wanted to be. It's plausible that deep down he wanted to be a man his father would respect; after all, why else would he want his attention? Liam may have shared many of his father's beliefs in what it meant to be a righteous man, and subconsciously he might have hoped to see a day where he could turn things around and live a more upstanding life; that is until Darla crossed his path. Being turned into a vampire was the worst thing imaginable; it's something his mind simply couldn't accept, it was a step too far. He was this unholy thing, that could never go back to being the man he was; who could never be accepted by his father, or by God, or even himself. It shattered his mind, and created a persona of such extreme indifference, as to burry all trace of the humanity that would spurn his existence; and then set on a self-destructive path, that should have earned him a stake through the chest dozens of times over.
We're Starfleet officers; weird is part of the job."
It's an interesting mixed bag; on the one hand, given how they ultimately blurred the lines of good and evil with other demons - even making it a major theme in "New Moon Rising," and "That Old Gang of Mine," the idea of vampires being unequivocally evil becomes kind of quaint and overly simplistic. This is personified through Spike, who demonstrates the capacity to function as any other being capable of making his own choices, without whatever a "soul" is ultimately supposed to be, outside of a plot convenience. If that weren't true, then Spike shouldn't have been able to demonstrate any loyalty to Buffy or the Scoobies, or Dawn; and assaulting Buffy shouldn't have meant anything to him. There should be no circumstance to motivate any vampire to intentionally earn a soul, but he does it, and it's an effective plot point, because he's not a two dimensional character.
On the other hand, the far extreme of trying to humanize vampires pretty much is Twilight; or the concept stirred up among the enthusiasts in the bunker. I like the idea of vampires as dangerous, antagonistic monsters. As the series went on, they arguably became too human; especially the ones that were easier to kill. They became almost like Putties from Power Rangers, just some generic creature that popped up for some brief gymnastic fighting, tap to the chest, and *poof*.
I think that's why Angelus worked so well, because he could be disarming, appeal to all the romantic ideas of a vampire as being misunderstood, then take advantage of that on a psychological thrill level.
Not a bigot, no, but I think the idea that Buffy and Giles espoused of a vampire simply being some new demon-entity in the drivers seat of the dead human form, is a convenient idea they tell themselves out of necessity; because if you humanize them, allow yourself to believe that there's something of human that can be appealed to, that becomes dangerous for a Slayer or anyone else determined to prevent the destruction and chaos the vampire might spread. Watchers and Slayers must be detached and dispassionate, because otherwise lives are on the line; innocents and their own.
Was Buffy right in saying it wouldn't have been Ford in the drivers seat of his own body? Or, is our Slayer being a bigot to the lonely ones?
But that doesn't mean the human that was isn't in there; they've demonstrated throughout BtVS and AtS that it is very much a contiguous existence. They're altered, there's no question of that; and everyone uses the same common term to describe the process - turned. Liam was turned into a vampire, not replaced by one. William was turned, Harmony was turned; Darla was turned, dusted, brought back as human and turned again. In that last case, the persona remains effectively the same throughout. When Darla was brought back as human, she had a soul, but was still quintessentially Darla. When Spike earned his soul, he more keenly felt the weight and implications of everything he done, but he was still the same. He didn't go back using his old accent from when he was human; when he broke through his emotional barriers keeping him from giving his all in a fight, he had the same passion and fire as he ever had. The only changed his perspective, but his identity.
In contrast to Buffy's resurrection, her soul had memories her body didn't - because it was decomposing - but she could recall being in a higher realm, and everything else; neither Angel nor Spike had any extra sets of memories of their souls being anywhere else. There was a momentary state of confusion, like coming out from being under anesthesia, but the fog lifts; and they cannot differentiate their existence between before and after they had their souls, apart from how difference of the latter makes them feel about certain past deeds.
For Spike, his major story of season 9 is how a song sung to the infant William Pratt by his mother, effected Spike, and gave the First an in to brainwash him. But for Spike, that wasn't "William's mother", it was his, and it was when he was a baby; and he carried the weight of having to dust his own mother, after turning her into a vampire, and realizing the mistake in that. In spite of becoming a demon, and wanting to cut a bloody swath across Europe, he still had the same emotional ties to his mother that he always did; everything that defined him as a human, define him as a vampire.
And it wasn't just Spike; Dru was no different. Angel drove her insane before he turned her, and she stayed that way.
Angel began to correct Buffy about the influence of the person over the vampire, after Willow commented that her vamp-self seemed to be gay; starting to say that the human would determine that aspect, only to backtrack when Buffy shot him a look that he wasn't helping.
The best I can figure a soul to be, apart from a convenient McGuffin tossed out mid-season 1, when much of the mythos of the Buffy-verse had yet to be defined; is that, in a very simplistic, pseudo-psychological way, the soul is the Super-Ego in the human psyche. The bridge between the primal impulses of the ID, and rational, pain-pleasure response mechanism of the Ego. The Ego has also been depicted as ones own concept of self. The Super-Ego tries to balance these other influences, and can also incorporate concepts of morality and propriety. Without the influence of the super-ego, the other two forces of the psyche would run rampant, and become a twisted version of who they would be otherwise.
Angelus would seem to be an outlier; even with the encounter between the Judge and the other vampires, the bookworm-vampire, Spike and Dru all had some degree of stench of humanity, whereas Angelus didn't. It could simply be that it's because he's just recently been stripped of his soul, and hasn't been around enough to pick-up any trace, but in general this almost seems to be an aversion of his. In "I Only have Eyes for You," he's deeply put off by his experience being possessed, and wants to cleans himself of that feeling of humanity. He also took strong offense to Buffy making him feel human.
My premise is that Liam was the last person who should have ever become a vampire; because in spite of his acting out, drinking and gallivanting with women, deep down he just wanted his father pay attention to him and love him. He couldn't seem to live up to any positive standard, so he excelled at living down to the lower bar his father set for him. If his father thought he could only ever be a failure, then he'd be the best failure possible - but that's not necessarily who he wanted to be. It's plausible that deep down he wanted to be a man his father would respect; after all, why else would he want his attention? Liam may have shared many of his father's beliefs in what it meant to be a righteous man, and subconsciously he might have hoped to see a day where he could turn things around and live a more upstanding life; that is until Darla crossed his path. Being turned into a vampire was the worst thing imaginable; it's something his mind simply couldn't accept, it was a step too far. He was this unholy thing, that could never go back to being the man he was; who could never be accepted by his father, or by God, or even himself. It shattered his mind, and created a persona of such extreme indifference, as to burry all trace of the humanity that would spurn his existence; and then set on a self-destructive path, that should have earned him a stake through the chest dozens of times over.
This made me think of an old cartoon - Duckula, a vampire duck from a long line of vampire ducks, who can be reincarnated under the right conditions after they've been killed; only this last time, Duckula was brought back accidentally using ketchup instead of blood, making him a vegetarian.
Wouldn't want to be a vampire unless I was still in control and could choose too be a vegetarian.
We're Starfleet officers; weird is part of the job."
Re: "Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
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Vamp fans fall into 2 categories, those who want to be them and those who want to stake them, both want to have sex with them. The Buffyverse is clever that it can have its' cake and eat it and allow you to do both with a clear conscience.
"Lie To Me" & Vampire Enthusiasts
I have my own opinions on the matter but I'm more intrigued by the others in that bomb shelter. They had this beautiful vision of what it meant to be a vampire. While some were met with the harsh truth, I'm sure there were others who still gave them a pass. Because changing your entire way of thinking about something isn't as easy as one might think. Being a vampire was NOT what they were met with in that cellar and it would take far more to convince them otherwise.
So, what about you guys? We as fans of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" have been exposed to what it means to be a vampire. And on this board, I've seen those who look to vampires as disgusting demons and others who still see them in a fairer light. Because they lean more towards other lore.
How do you personally feel about vampirism? And I mean in reference to this show as well as other forms of media. Do you think it's something fascinating or is it something to hate? Further, do you feel Ford was justified in desire to be a vampire? Was Buffy right in saying it wouldn't have been Ford in the drivers seat of his own body? Or, is our Slayer being a bigot to the lonely ones?