Game of Thrones : How much did Littlerfinger know about…..

Ramsay Boulton. I mean if he knew, then he knew Sansa could have died and then where would his plans be? He should know he couldn't expect loyalty from the Boultons.

You have eternity. I have only now.

I mean it's all about which is worse, right? Is it worse for him to know and do it anyway? Or is it worse for him to be too stupid to do even basic intelligence gathering before leaving her there?

I thin the official canon is that he didn't know.

I think it would be smarter if he did know and just assumed Sansa's status would protect her from anything too severe.

Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot.

I find Reddit difficult to use and the topics to be less enjoyable.

Kentoc'h mervel eget beza saotret

Reddit kind of sucks. In the setup. And it doesn't really encourage personal interaction like this does.

It's just the only one around that still gets traffic.

I like talking to everyone here. But I also like talking with new people.

Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot.

That was my impression also, that Littlefinger did not know Ramsay was a psychopath.

And even looking at things using the cold logic that LF operates by, how would it help LF for him to knowingly deliver Sansa into the hands of a psychopath? Littlefinger's ambitions greatly depend on Sansa. At least that's the impression we are being given. So after Ramsay, how's that's going for LF? Did LF improve his prospects with Sansa by marrying her of to that lunatic? I don't see how, which leads me to conclude that LF simply did not know what Ramsay was.

Either that, or LF is playing a game of 11-dimensional chess that I have not yet figured out. And sometimes I wonder if that's true. Varys, one of the smartest people in the GoT story, once described Littlefinger as the most dangerous man in Westeros.

I think Littlefinger ("LF") is the most overrated character of all time. So, it pains me to defend him.

But his plan actually worked out fine for him so far.

First of all, Sansa saved his life from the knights of the Vale. Now a normal person might be grateful. But for LF this is bad news. Her establishing confidence in herself and being comfortable interacting with the Vale is bad for him. The fact that she obviously knows the Vale will listen to her (Ned Stark's daughter) over him is the worst news he could get. So, she had to be taken away from the Vale immediately once he saw that happen.

Second, even if Ramsay was a sadist LF was betting on the fact that the Boltons couldn't kill her. They needed a Stark. It didn't matter what they did to her. He doesn't give a sh!t about Sansa. He cares about her claims to Winterfell and Riverrun.

*beep* up their relationship didn't matter. Because, ultimately, Sansa would need him to be rescued, at all. Even if she escaped where could she go? She'd always need LF. He could risk her being tortured because he knew he'd still have her on the hook.

And his plan worked perfectly. Ultimately, Sansa is pissed at him but she still needed him (just as he planned).

Third, it is true that what LF didn't count on was Jon Snow. Once Sansa learns he's Lord Commander you can see she knows exactly where she has to escape to.



(A simple brother of the NW can't have some random chick stay with them but Lord Commander?)

If Sansa has friends and family she doesn't need to rely on LF. LF has always tried to isolate her from everyone. As far back as season 2.

But he's already working on undermining that bond. And if Arya or Bran return he'll work to undo those bonds.

Ultimately, he's in a better position now than he was before. He just has to get rid of Jon Snow, a man already got himself killed once.

And in the short term Jon getting crowned is the BEST thing that could have happened. So great one wonders if he had a role in it. Because that's the angle he'll use to get Sansa to turn.

Once Sansa is back on his side (and ONLY then): Kill Jon, kill Bran, kill Edmure, kill Edmure's kid. Sansa controls the North and the Riverlands. Marry her to Robin and kill Robin then she has the Vale too. Let Cersei and Dany kill each other. He's still in the running to marry someone who can inherit half of Westeros with just a few murders. Once the dust settles who would be in a better position to take over than someone who already has half of it?

Of course, the only problem is Sansa and Arya will kill him first. But that hasn't happened yet.

Ultimately his plan will fail. But as of right now it's all worked perfectly.


Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot.

Good analysis. I think you (and other posters) are right - LF didn't know that much about Ramsay. And you're also right - LF had kept Sansa completely isolated so the only person she felt she could rely is him. Which is why she wouldn't go with Brienne when she had the chance.

You have eternity. I have only now.

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That was my impression also, that Littlefinger did not know Ramsay was a psychopath.

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Heck, even Ramsay's own father misjudged him. If anyone should have known how twisted he was

He did not misjudge him. He just didn't expect him to make a move at that very moment.

He obviously expects Ramsay to be concerned about losing his title. It seemed silly to me that he practically goads Ramsay into killing him.
You don't have to be faster than the shark

In he books he constantly eggs Ramsey on. Roose doesn't seem to care if he dies or not.

I doubt in the books he will die so stupidly though. Even if you don't really care.walking up and hugging him when he has a knife is plain stupid.

Also, I don't think he realized that by making Ramsey a Bolton he doomed himself. If he never did that, I doubt Ramsey would be able to get away with killing him.

So the Boltons were always known to be peaceful neighbor loving hippie lambs? Their sigil an olive branch? Someone here doesn't think they're vampires?
Of course he knew.


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"Art is magic delivered from the lie of being truth"

Boltons are known torturers, but that doesn't mean all Boltons are sadists.

You don't have to be faster than the shark

I don't think he knew nothing at all, that'd be dumb. I like to think he knew to an extent. He likely did not think Ramsay nor his House to be innocent little lambs but did not know how gruesome it actually was.

As he said to Sansa in the crypts, she should make him hers and that is what he assumed would happen. That despite his "misgivings", she would persist in that and eventually it would work out.

If they ever tell my story, let them say I walked with giants.

Books or show, I don't think Littlefinger knew the truth about Ramsay. Even the Starks and Theon didn't know until it was too late, and they were in the same area. Roose kept Ramsay's nature a closely guarded secret. Only those who had direct dealings with the Boltons knew what they were dealing with. A Southron like Littlefinger had little chance of knowing.

That's BS. In the second book Bran a co. openly discuss what a psycho Ramsay is when discussing Lady Hornwood. And when she's captured the whole of the North knows he starved her to death.

It was no secret at all that he was a psycho. They all know. They openly discuss it. They don't want Lady Hornwood to have to be with him they all know what happens when he gets her. At least in the books.

And aren't you the one who pointed out that Jeyne had whip marks on her back before she wed Ramsay? Meaning LF had prepared her for some level of torture when teaching her to pleasure men.

ETA: And in the books Roose shows Cat the flayed finger skin Ramsay sends him. He's not hiding anything, really.

If he cared about having good sons he had one. And basically let him be killed.



Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot.

I had forgotten that Ramsay's ahole tendencies had slipped out in CoK. I just knew Ramsay was little to unknown outside the North.

I had changed my mind that Littlefinger was directly responsible for Jeyne's whippings, and that was instead due to Roose and Cersei's correspondence. When I was investigating another matter, I came to the conclusion the timelines don't add up right. I need to check on that with the official timeline on the morrow.

Roose not hiding Ramsay's nature doesn't make sense, but little about Roose does. That's vampires for you.

I'm 75% sure Domeric was not Roose's son, but Brandon Stark's bastard.

Dude, you have no idea how often I just quote things you say about the books as fact. So, you have to follow up with me if you change your mind!

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I'm 75% sure Domeric was not Roose's son, but Brandon Stark's bastard.

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God damnit, that makes sense.

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Roose not hiding Ramsay's nature doesn't make sense, but little about Roose does. That's vampires for you.

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He doesn't have to worry about any of this sh!t he's been alive for over 8,000 years.

Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot.

The whole prepping a teen girl for torture thing just screams Cersei to me, not Littlefinger. I also don't think he would have done that to Sansa's BFF.

Roose needs to do a better job at protecting his legacy. Because of Ramsay, he's gonna have the whole North gunning for him soon. Fat Walda better not suffer because of his incompetence. She's awesome and doesn't deserve the company surrounding her.

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And aren't you the one who pointed out that Jeyne had whip marks on her back before she wed Ramsay? Meaning LF had prepared her for some level of torture when teaching her to pleasure men.

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GRRM's a hack who thinks nothing is interesting if it doesn't expose some extremely filthy, cruel or depraved behaviour. I don't think I'll ever touch the books again.

Coming back to the logic of the story, Littlefinger doesn't give Ramsay his precious Sansa in the books but a poor girl no one cares for whom he and the Boltons pass as Arya.

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Two things:

1) Other readers in this thread point out that it was no secret in the book, but in the show, they clearly had an introduction of LF to RB, with LF dialog saying (more or less) "I don't know you" and RB acting innocent and whatnot to placate him. So in the show, we're supposed to believe (as another poster points out) that LF didn't know the extent of RB's psychotic aspects.

2) Even so, as Myranda points out to Sansa before Theon shucks her over the side of the rampart, RB needs Sansa alive, or at least the parts that will produce a son.

RIP IMDb message boards!

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1) Other readers in this thread point out that it was no secret in the book, but in the show, they clearly had an introduction of LF to RB, with LF dialog saying (more or less) "I don't know you" and RB acting innocent and whatnot to placate him. So in the show, we're supposed to believe (as another poster points out) that LF didn't know the extent of RB's psychotic aspects.

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He has no reason to lie to Ramsay in that moment. This bit of exposition is there to plainly tell viewers that he doesn't know.

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Even if he did know and Sansa ended up dead, Littlefinger could have used the Knights of the Vale and rallied the northern lords to his side, sieged Winterfell and killed Ramsey, putting Littlefinger as Warden of the North.

LOL at "his" Knights of the Vale. They all hate him.

Nor would rhe North ever allow a southerner to be warden.

And he doesn't want to be warden. He wants to be Lord of Winterfell and Lord of Riverrun (after Edmure and his son guess who is in line to inherit Riverrun? Bran. Guess who is if Bran is dead? Sansa. Guess who are next in line for Winterfell?)

Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot.

He didn't know. He told you early on in S5. Why don't you believe the man?

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Is there an idiot in any village who trusts Littlefinger?

Wait..What?

We're not in a village.

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When he stated that he had limited info on Ramsey, it is a rare time that he is telling the truth. Most Northerners didn't even know about him until he captured Mote Cailyn.