The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford : Suicide By Bob?

Suicide By Bob?

First off I wanna say that it is mind-blowing how good this movie is.

What do you think of the idea that Jesse knew Bob's plot and decided to go along with it?

We already know Jesse is suicidal based on the scene with Charlie on the ice. Then Jesse tells Bob that he can tell Bob's changed his mind about him. After that realization he buys Bob a new pistol and confesses that he doesn't like the man he's become almost suggesting the Bob use the new gun to put him out of his misery.

Finally, after it's been established that Jesse never takes his guns off he decides to take them off and turn his back to Bob. It seems to me Jesse was depressed and suicidal and was almost complicit in Bob's plot to kill him.

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Suicide By Bob?


It seems to me Jesse was depressed and suicidal and was almost complicit in Bob's plot to kill him.
I think the movie goes out of its way to suggest that. Not sure how historically accurate that is, but the director has the right to interpret that sort of thing as he chooses.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

We know how the film interprets it. History is not so clear. What we know of Jesse's assassination comes directly from Bob & Charley Ford, for the most part. Bob Ford was never consistent with his recollections in regards to the deal that was supposedly struck with Gov. Thomas Crittenden and his killing of Jesse. We cannot know Jesse's state of mind in the months, weeks and days leading up to his death in April of 1882. Was he despondent, desperate, and paranoid from living the outlaw life for about 20 years? I'd imagine so. Who wouldn't weary of such a life? Always having to look over your shoulder, moving constantly, trying to stay one step ahead of the law; it must've been a difficult existence. However, that does not mean he intentionally wanted Bob Ford to kill him.

Think of the psychological affects that were inflicted on the young minds of Civil War soldiers. Jesse was 16 years old when he joined up with Quantrill and Bloody Bill Anderson! Times were different then, and 16 was considered to be an adult. But Jesse was practically a boy still when he saw and participated in the wholesale slaughter of innocent men, women and children. The horrors and atrocities that he witnessed and participated in shaped the lives of himself, his brother Frank, the Youngers; countless others. So, the point being, we cannot truly fathom Jesse's state of mind having grown to adulthood in such an environment.

Re: Suicide By Bob?


Not sure how historically accurate that is, but the director has the right to interpret that sort of thing as he chooses.

we cannot truly fathom Jesse's state of mind
I'd agree with you.

However, that does not mean he intentionally wanted Bob Ford to kill him.

For sure!

We know how the film interprets it.


I was actually somewhat disappointed with how the film interprets this. Dominik appears to hedge his bets. Whereas Frank is down the line and matter of fact after the railway robbery (I'm done with this), we never quite know what's going on with Jesse in spite of spending all this wistful time watching him wander through fields contemplating his navel. (Did the guy ever actually work?) He does a revenge killing, appears to be planning another robbery and yet also appears to let/encourage Bob to knock him off.

After 160 minutes I was none the wiser. My personal opinion would be that a guy like Jesse wouldn't softly embrace death as he appeared to do in this film.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

I agree, spookyrat. The film, while being fairly historically accurate for a Hollywood movie (movie being the key word), it is not a documentary obviously. If you're interested in learning more of the facts and less of the fiction regarding this historical event, I can recommend some books on the subject.

Oh, and to answer your question - yes, Jesse did try a couple times to leave outlaw living behind and go legit. However, Jesse always went back to robbing and stealing. It was what he was best at.

Re: Suicide By Bob?


It was what he was best at.
I think that was an aspect the film got right. He just appeared to be a slacker at home, just lying around when he wasn't walking through the fields. By comparison Zee James was positively industrious, always appearing to be doing something.

I wonder whether she really missed him in the long run?

Re: Suicide By Bob?


By comparison Zee James was positively industrious, always appearing to be doing something.

I wonder whether she really missed him in the long run?


If you're interested in this, I'd recommend you to read the book the film is based on which tells a lot about Zee's nature (though is obviously historical fiction, but still, based on what facts there are so I assume somewhat true.)

The film doesn't really bother with Zee, but what drives her and who she is is focussed on in the novel. smile.gif

I found the book a fascinating read. And I might add that nearly all of the Jesse-and-Bob bits make the film, but there is also a bit about Jesse's life pre Bob and a lot about Bob's life after Jesse.

haha, I unintentionally made it sound like a love story there! Ooops!!!

Re: Suicide By Bob?

I'll look for it at the local library spiral.

haha, I unintentionally made it sound like a love story there! Ooops!!!

Don't worry! There were times the film felt like that (to an extent).

Re: Suicide By Bob?

Let us know what you think if you find it (Ron Hansen be the author though you likely know - put it here for easier library hunting smile.gif!) - hope you enjoy! smile.gif

Re: Suicide By Bob?

The book was fantastic. There's about three scenes with Jesse and Bob in the book that I sure wish were in the movie. The fishing scene, the Christmas scene, and the part with Jesse and Bob in the garden the night before the assassination are all wonderful.

Wonder if they shot those scenes and that's part of the four hour cut of the movie. I know the garden scene was filmed, not sure about the fishing one and Christmas one.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

I certainly agree with your post. To your second paragraph, I feel like the film and Brad Pitt did a good job of suggesting some of the psychological damage Jesse's childhood experiences may have resulted in in terms of how he was portrayed. Of course it didn't go into telling us the deals of the horrors of the things he did as pretty much a child. Obviously, if we are thinking about any person in history: even those much more objectively recounted by primary sources, we can't know the complete details of who they were as people, the precise reasons for everything they did and what they felt.

In terms of the film suggesting of Jesse intentionally wanted Bob Ford to kill him. I don't think it necessarily does. I think you can take this from the film if you wish: if you take the film to it's farthest degree you can think of Jesse essentially grooming Bob for this task, making it happen.

At the same time, I'd say the film suggests something a bit more subtle: that Jesse was depressed and, to a degree, suicidal but same as when he shot at the ice: it felt to me more like he was of a state of mind where he'd just take chances but really he was just testing things.. The public must've considered Jesse kind of infallible by now?? Surely, at this point, the fact that he was still alive and not captured he must have felt himself somehow a little that way too? Anyway, that aside: Jesse shoots the ice with an almost "if I die right now so be it" matter of fact attitude. But does he really expect the ice will break?

In a similar vein, Jesse does essentially groom Bob to be the man who will kill him, but does he do it intentionally? I don't think so. And even the final death scene, Jesse puts down his guns like he is asking Bob to kill him, goes to the picture like he knows what's going to happen, is craving it. But does he rely expect bob to pull the trigger? I'm not so sure.

I guess what I'm saying is that the film makes it clear that Jesse is depressed. If he was utterly suicidal though, maybe, he's religious, he doesn't want to kill himself, but I'm pretty sure he could have found many a way to end his life more easily. But in any case, I think the film depicts something a little more subtle which am trying to get at but am not quite sure how to get into words.

'Course if you want to take it even further, you could say one thing Jesse and Bob had in common is they both loved the idea of fame and notoriety. Jesse supposedly loved his own fame. And it is true that the manner of Jesse's death is what meant that in history he'd remain the wronged hero-outlaw. Had he lived, been imprisoned, killed by the law, killed himself or been killed during some outlawing, more likely since tide had turned against him at the time of his death and since he was indeed a dangerous outlaw, history wouldn't have been so favourable. Was Jesse aware enough to understand this?

You'd have to be quite the cynic I suppose to imagine he could be quite so calculated as to perhaps know he was going to die soon one way or another. Suicidal tendencies notwithstanding he was out of a gang other than the Ford's now and the authorities were closing in he hadn't long left. Did he want Bob to kill him rather than to die at the hands of the authorities: to be seen to be wronged rather than to die for his wrongs? But it is another question I guess.

Anyway, if we're talking about the real history of all of this I have no idea. I have nothing to go on other than the film itself myself.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

Well, that is the question, isn't it? Robert Ford is like Jack McCall. Unless you can visualize the motivations you can't begin to fathom their actions. Deadwood made McCall very plain to me, as this movie did with Robert Ford.

Earlier attempts to explain Ford were varied, such as Long Riders and that one with Rob Lowe. In Long Riders, Jesse never saw it coming. Rob Lowe might as well have shot himself, the scenes of Jesse's sacrificial posturing were so heavy. But here again you can't explain Ford or McCall without understanding the relationship to the protagonist. We will never know why Wild Bill broke his long standing rule about having his back to a wall. Perhaps he was just tired and distracted, or figured he would get lucky. But after seeing David Milch's interpretation and Garrett Dilahunt interacting with Keith Carradine, you begin to wonder if maybe a lot of those old frontier characters were just not right in the head.

Casy Affleck did manage to create the most annoying kid I have seen on the screen in ages. Again, this is integral to the plot, as he obviously idolizes Jesse and his dream is to be with his hero. Other great supporting roles went to Dilahunt again- have you ever seen somebody look so nervous without even uttering a line? If anything revealed Jesses' paranoia it was his treatment of Ed Miller. Is it any wonder Bob and Charley are on pins and needles? I also loved how Sam Rockwell managed to convey the immediacy of their situation- that is, it turned to a 'him or us' situation, and events were herding them to take action. But if Charley didn't present it strong enough, Bob would never have killed his hero and idol. He just didn't want to be the next victim, or go to jail. He was trapped.

Having looked at all that my interpretation from the movie is that Jesse realizes he is losing it, has a moment of clarity that he has become truly paranoid and distrustful. His forgetting his guns was like Wild Bill sitting with his back to the room- a one time lapse that proved that just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. The stress of always being 'under the gun' is the same as shell shock, or PTSD. Back then you just drank a little more kept on. The time Wild Bill and Jesse tried to live like anybody else- sit wherever, go unarmed- they died. I am sure Jesse flirted with giving up the lifestyle but he also knew that it would follow him wherever he went- shades of Unforgiven? What was it William Munny says when the kid shows up? "I thought maybe you come to kill me for something I done in the old days." Not many want to be a rolling stone for eternity, or always on edge to maintain a reputation.

Lastly, I just loved the bit about Charley when he and Bob take it on the road, him seeming to channel the ghost of Jesse- glaring at Bob before the reenactment of his murder. It presents Bob as he always was, a kid driven by forces and people in a way he never understood and never being able to gain the approval he always wanted.

I almost forgot, the assumption that when Jesse tells Bob he can tell he has changed his mind about him and buys him a pistol, I have a different view. I think the pistol is a sign of acceptance, and Bob changing his mind is an indication he thinks Bob is growing up and may be useful to him. I think with Frank gone he had nobody he could trust and desperately wanted to trust Bob. In the end, he surrounds himself with an idiot (Charley) and the president of his fan club. (Bob). What could go wrong?

Re: Suicide By Bob?

Brad Pitt's portrayal of Jesse was not Paranoid. He was not suicidal, but instead was an alone cautious cornered man. Jesse was not a fool by any means. The man in the movie was wise and made choices as if he had a sixth sense.

Paranoid would be Ed Miller and the Ford boys.

Jesse gave Bob that nickle plated revolver for a reason. Just like he took his belt off and turned his back to the envies little boy.

Jess was not going to be killed by no hanging. He wasn't going to die from health issues. He damn sure was going to be killed by a busted revolver. If he was going to be shot. The man doing it would end up the way ole Bob Ford ended up.a coward.

Had Jesse not given the coward a safe passage. Jesse would have just gotten bored and killed them at his leisure. Bob, Charlie, nor many others would have tried to take on Jesse with his guns.

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

I think he died.

I agree. It's hard to imagine legends dying: Elvis, Tupac, etc.

But, as Bob put it in the film, "He's just a human being."

Re: Suicide By Bob?

mellomoviereview, apparently that history channel documentary is complete nonsense. From the wikipedia entry:


Rumors of Jesse James's survival proliferated almost as soon as the newspapers announced his death. Some said that Robert Ford killed someone other than James, in an elaborate plot to allow him to escape justice.[10] These tales have received little credence, then or later. None of James's biographers accepted them as plausible. The body buried in Kearney, Missouri, as Jesse James's was exhumed in 1995 and subjected to mitochondrial DNA typing. The report, prepared by Anne C. Stone, Ph.D., James E. Starrs, L.L.M., and Mark Stoneking, Ph.D., stated the mtDNA recovered from the remains was consistent with the mtDNA of one of James's relatives in the female line.[64]


So, there is DNA evidence proving that Robert Ford did indeed kill someone at least related to Jesse James, if not Jesse James himself. The body was also purported to be missing the nub of the middle finger, and had two unhealed bullet wounds in the chest. Either this was an elaborate hoax by James/Fords (who somehow knew that DNA fingerprinting would be possible in the future, short of a time machine, I don't know how they could), or that documentary is total BS.

That's the history channel for you.

More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_James#Rumors_of_survival

In short, there is overwhelming evidence that either Robert or Charley Ford shot Jesse James in the back of the head.

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Suicide By Bob?


Thanks for this insight. I appreciate the response.


is the least insane, most reasonable & courteous response I've seen on iMDB in a very long time. Kudos!

Post deleted

This message has been deleted.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

I think it is more complicated than simple suicide but this idea is definitely in the film. As the film portrays it (who of us can say about reality) there are definitely many times when Jesse is suicidal and almost seeks death, draws the man toward him who will kill him (and provides weapon, opportunity and indeed motive!) as if that were always intention. On the other side, Jesse is shown as unpredictable, paranoid, his mood ever changing - one day embracing death, the next suspicious of those closest to him, the next, seemingly full of joy and giving

What is true in both reality and the film is that times were changing. Until after his death, by this point in time, Jesse was no longer seen as the revered hero. He was beginning to be seen as criminal not just by the law but by everyone. And he no longer had a gang around him. He could not commit the crimes that gave him the rush of life. I think the difference for Jesse and his older brother other than personality was maybe that Frank was older when he was first a guerilla during the Civil War. Jesse was young enough that the actions he undertook (I mean, as well as killing, things like scalping people! I am sure some time I read Jesse was supposedly particularly good at it all) changed or created who he was as a person. Jesse never wanted to go straight. He liked the power and buzz of crime and of fame and those days were over And well, I mean, Jesse was a psychopath. He could kill easy as. That is what his Civil War experiences created. A dangerous, disturbed, murderous (yet also charming, and of course, in some respects loving - to family and such) man.

I mean I think the film suggests all is not well mentally speaking in Jesse's head. Seems clear enough with reality. By this point, for Jesse, it was only a matter of time until he was caught. He was basically just waiting to be caught. Ironically, Bob's killing of Jesse is the thing that secured his legacy in a more positive light. Had he been captured, I'd imagine he'd be remembered far more as the criminal In killing Jesse, Bob instead secures his own legacy as the coward of the title. Is this the Bob of the film though? Certainly not.

In terms of Jesse's death, well, he does take off the gun belt. Is he asking Bob to kill him? Waiting for it? Or does he do it as if to suggest he knows Bob won't kill him? Or is it even further a threat - I know I am safe but later, with what I know, you won't be It is ambiguous to some degree, as it should be, as we cannot know at the same time, much is clearly suggested about the psychology of all of these men.

It is well over a year since I last watched the film so I don't remember everything clearly so sorry for any mistakes in my memory time for a re-watch soon though I think.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

Been a while since I checked this. I appreciate the response. It's one of those movie endings that can be thought about and reconsider d forever. I'm grateful for it and am planning a rewatch myself.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

I just re-watched and, without having read the book, am convinced that Jesse groomed Bob to be his way out of an untenable situation. As stated above, times had changed and Jesse was a hunted man who was more likely to be sold out by current or former associates than to die in an attempted robbery. He couldn't go straight and he couldn't get it together to organize a robbery with Charley alone, and was forced to fall back on Bob whom he did not trust for lack of Jim Cummins, Wood Hite, and Dick Liddell who were nowhere to be found.

With Bob and Charley under his thumb, Jesse had two options. He could use them to pull off one last robbery and get them killed off to protect himself, or he could use them to bring about his own demise and assure his own legend. We know from multiple scenes that Jesse was highly aware of and enjoyed his own fame.

So the three men holed up with the family in St. Joseph and plotted the robbery in Platte City. Stuck in that small house together, the narrator points out that Jesse was moody, determined to keep Bob and Charley separated and under control, and we see how threatening his behavior is to Bob in the parlor scene. The narrator points out that Jesse casts sad looks at Bob when others don't see, revealing his melancholy and vulnerability.

In the scene where Jesse gives the gun to Bob, the very first thing he says is, "You're going to break a lot of hearts." I think he's talking about his own fans who will be upset after Bob kills him, and that he is giving Bob a decent gun to make sure he does a good clean job of killing him. Then he talks about one of the people who has written about him. So his very next topic is related to his personal fame. It convinces me of Jesse's awareness that if his own sidekick kills him it will secure his legend as a victim rather than as the terrorist and murderer he really was.

In the breakfast scene, when Jesse realizes Bob surely knew Dick had been arrested and was part of a deal to turn him in for a reward, he knew it was time for one of them to die. He let Bob and Charley leave the kitchen ahead of him.

When Jesse got to the parlor and asked, "Are you ready?" Charley as always said the right thing and answered, "I'll be ready at noon." In other words, Charley was telling Jesse that he was not in on the reward deal and was willing to stick to the Platte City plan. So Jesse knew the betrayal was Bob's deal. They all knew Jesse was not going to surrender himself into their custody, and the only resolution was going to be Jesse's death or Bob and Charley's deaths. As he listened to Mary's poem, Jesse decided there was no time like the present and so he decided to go for it. He disarmed himself and presented his back so Bob could shoot him through the head.

Of course this is not based on history. This is what the film presented, or at least how I saw the film. I thought it was clear that Jesse planned either to kill Charley and Bob during the trip to Platte City or to get killed by Bob, whichever made the most sense at the time. To groom Bob, Jesse turned Bob from being his number one fan (cigars on the porch, etc) to hating him (Martha's kitchen) and seeing his vulnerability. Then Jesse armed Bob properly and made himself a target.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

I think it is quite interesting to think about the fact that Jesse's Father and the brother who had he lived would have been closest in age to Jesse were called Robert too. This has to have been something Jesse thought about at some time. Also, he seems from what I have read to have believed in rather mystical things, so who knows quite what he may have thought

I don't think it is so simple as the film presenting one unambiguous viewpoint of Jesse's intentions, but Bob killing him surely served Jesse well in terms of his legacy, and on top of this the film unequivocally shows Jesse as often craving death and showing ambivalence towards life (for example when he shoots the ice) and a sometimes depressed state of mind.

I can certainly see how you could see the film as implying it was definitely all Jesse's plan and of course it is possible for all of the reasons you state! Bob was a young kid who idolised Jesse too, so he'd be easy to mould to Jesse's whim whatever that may be. On the other hand, Jesse did love his family very much. And with his craving for fame and vanity, would he really have completely given over to death? I'm not sure? How long would he have known he wanted Bob for this task? What would Jesse have done had he discovered Bob's true feelings sooner (I mean, Jesse is suspicious of the Ford's and by the end won't allow them to spend time alone together without him doesn't sound like a man who definitely wants to die..)

I agree Jesse (as seen in the film) would have killed Bob and Charley had Bob not killed him. As for grooming him, I felt it more as Bob adored Jesse, and as you do when you love someone Bob had ideas of being one of the most important people to Jesse whereas in reality he merely discovered both that his perfect idea of Jesse James was not the reality of who the man was - in fact Jesse was cruel - generally, but upsettingly, more specifically towards Bob and Bob also probably always felt like the kid brother in life and kinda powerless (he's still only 19) and he likely imagined that was something that'd give him power. What he found was that he was the butt of jokes to everyone still, Jesse included. Just that Jesse's jokes can end up more sinister. But Bob discovered his own insignificance. I don't think it was intentional by Jesse to belittle Bob but I think early on he felt suspicion, of Bob specifically and, well, Jesse was by this point in life incredibly suspicious of literally everyone.

I still hold out hope someday that we could see the Director's cut of this film which Andrew Dominik has said he could put out very easily since I assume it would contain more of Bob's life post-Jesse which is very informative and poignant in the book by Ron Hansen. Because you discover who Bob becomes by the time he is older and in so discovering that you understand who and what he could have been had he never encountered Jesse in the first place. I think you still feel this from the film as it is to a degree, but it is deeper in the novel as the film spends little time in this afterwards place.

Casey Affleck is a potential Oscar winner with this year's Manchester by the Sea. Could that inspire the release of the Director's Cut? Oh I hope so!

Oh, I want to do a re-watch of this film now! It has been ages since I watched! Thus, sorry if I said anything wrong. It is over a year since I watched the film! Maybe over two?!?!

Re: Suicide By Bob?

Your memory is terrific. I would be very interested to see if your opinions change after you've had a chance to see it again.

Re: Suicide By Bob?

Your memory is terrific. I would be very interested to see if your opinions change after you've had a chance to see it again. In the meantime, I need to read the book.
Top