Palindromes : mark's speech about genetics and arbirtrary energy

Does anyone think Mark's worldview is the truth?

ie, we live in a material universe made solely of fluctuations of energy which, in human beings, means genes etc, and we have no free will.

j35us fu hugging christ, i got to 'however' and i still feel you, but i want you to condense some of your conclusion cuz i'm with you

You know i thought that marks short section was the best part of the movie and his little rant was really rather moving in a sad sort of way. I dunno, i hated this movie, but i liked that scene.

late for the sky

I don't know if I buy this. If you believe in scientific explanations that doesn't corner you into determinism like most people believe. That is the classical viewpoint. Current physics shows all sorts of things about randomness and consciousness. Quantum mechanics brings free will back into the debate for scientists. I highly suggest reading the book The Quantum Enigma for a good lay account of this part of the debate.

It's always a combination of genes and environment (although they've shown genes are usually predominant) For example, say you have the genes and the perfect body to become an Olympic gymnast. However, if your parents didn't put you in gymnastics by the age of say, 8 at the very latest, there's no hope for you, no matter how strong your "gymnastics" genes are. People that turn out to be serial killer usually are born with certain traits - i.e. a high desire for risk and excitement, and then paired in an abusive environment, you get a serial killer. I've never heard of someone becoming a serial killer that wasn't raised in a screwed-up manner. Furthermore, look at obesity. Of course some people are naturally skinny, some are naturally more heavy, but the amount of heavy people in the US has increased exponentially since our lifestyles became more sedentary. Furthermore, with the whole peeping Tom thing.pretty amazing coincidence, but when you think about it, how many people are Peeping Toms without a fellow Tom relative? Probably quite a bit, but we fail to recognize them..

Finally, we ALWAYS have free will. Too many people just give up and whine about how much their life sucks. People that succeed the most, and are the happiest, are those that recognize they themselves are controlling their fate (for the most part) not God or destiny or luck or what have you. I've always pretty much got what I've wanted and it's not because I'm lucky but because I work REALLY HARD for what I want. I mean, if someone like Madonna (not that hot and not super talented) can become super famous by shear WILLPOWERI mean that speaks volumes

Sometimes the difference between self-amusement and self-actualization is less than you think.

Give me a break. Obviously, we control a lot of the variables in our lives, but there is absolutely an element of luck involved, and opportunity. I'm sure you DO work very hard. But you were lucky enough to be born into certain opportunities. If you were born in Somalia, do you think you would be on the internet message boards? A lot of other people who work very hard, maybe harder than you, will never be able to "pretty much get what [they've] wanted." This isn't because of a negative attitude or lack of willpower. There is only so much opportunity, and it is impossible for everyone to succeed. You just don't know that because you've admittedly never experienced hardship. It's awfully hoity of you to assume that people who do face hardships simply don't have minds as perfect as yours.

In the case of Madonna, she obviously was hot and talented ENOUGH to get to where she is. I mean she wasn't a great beauty, but do you think if she looked like Janet Reno she'd have made it? Maybe she isn't the most musically talented person in your opinion, but she clearly has other talents that got her places, not just willpower. Such talents might include social climbing, making business decisions, and sucking c*ck.

Get real.

no cases where serial killers didn't come from a messed up environment?just saying, but THE BAD SEED wasn't thought out of thin airthere are actual statistics that show they weren't all in abusive druggy raping families

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Finally, we ALWAYS have free will. Too many people just give up and whine about how much their life sucks. People that succeed the most, and are the happiest, are those that recognize they themselves are controlling their fate (for the most part) not God or destiny or luck or what have you. I've always pretty much got what I've wanted and it's not because I'm lucky but because I work REALLY HARD for what I want. I mean, if someone like Madonna (not that hot and not super talented) can become super famous by shear WILLPOWERI mean that speaks volumes

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Falling into a Just-World Fallacy mindset is very dangerous. Everybody has his own limits. Whether they can or not reach what they want truly depends on many factors, such as genetics, environment, upbringing, and yes, luck and opportunity. You can maximize your potential, but it doesn't mean it will be good enough for your own ambitions. Not everyone can be an A-List Hollywood actor. Not everyone can be an NFL All-Star. That's just how it is.

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Current physics shows all sorts of things about randomness and consciousness. Quantum mechanics brings free will back into the debate for scientists.

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I know this is a very old thread, but no it doesn't. Randomness means just that: randomness. That's not the same as a choice, which is decidedly nonrandom.

And there is no real science connecting the quantum realm to consciousness; all of the "quantum consciousness" stuff is considered unsupported pseudo-scientific speculation by almost all scientists with at least some expertise in both neurology and quantum mechanics.

The quantum realm is the realm of the inconceivably tiny. By the time you get up to the size scale of individual neurons, let alone the brain, quantum effects don't play a significant role, because they tend to average out, leading to statistically highly predictable behavior for systems of large numbers of particles.

So even with modern physics, there isn't much -if any- room left for "classic free will" (i.e.: true freedom to choose what you want). It's more like really complex and chaotic determinism with a random element. Your choices may be determined by your desires, but what you desire is determined by your (very complex) circumstances (including genetics, personality, social factors, history, and so on), plus possibly some randomness (and chaos that may amplify it).

Now, that might sound a little bleak to some, but really, it is not that surprising. We all know there are reasons why people do what they do (even if those reasons might be insane). And the alternative really isn't much better! The world would be an even more chaotic and terrifying place if people's choices were completely unrelated to who they are or what their circumstances are. There'd be no reliability at all!

truth or not it was a great scene

i also liked this scene. it was a very well written speech.

while watching the scene i couldnt help but get the feeling that marks speech was cleary about what todd solondzi (the writer and director of this movie) believes.

I found his speech to be devastatingly accurate. I thought back to the studies I read about in a psychology book on twins in different environments, how twins who grew up in completely different homes are exactly alike, regardless of environment. I don't really think we have a say in who we are. And it's not like it's our family's fault, because they didn't have much of a say either.



I'll join you when hell freezes over.
Dumbledore's Army!

This was the best scene in the movie. Not just Mark's speech, but I felt sorry for him because of his situation. In Welcome to the Dollhouse, he was so nerdy, but funny. He was constantly looking for resume builders to get into a good college, so you knew he was focused on success. I got the feeling that his awkwardness was a youthful stage, but because of his determination on making the right moves, career-wise he would be one of those who would have the last laugh.
But seeing the accusations against him in this film, and how he had become despised by everyone, as well as hopeless and resigned. It was heartbreaking for me to see because in a way, I could relate (not to what he was accused of) I suffer from clinical depression. This refers back the part of Mark's speech about genetics. My father was depressed and he took his life when I was a kid. I was always aware that I had it, too, but managed to keep it in check. However, at one point in my life, it started to really rear its ugly head, and I found that I could not keep it together. I had started to become increasingly moody, and then drank a lot. I started to guilt trip people. Soon, my group of friends that I worked with turned their backs on me, and even told me they wanted no further contact with me. I walked out on my job soon after, and it had gotten so bad, that I made a suicide attempt and ended up in the hospital.
I have a large extended family, lots of cousins. Right after my attempt, my mom said I should go to a family get together for memorial day at their bay house. I didn't think it would be a good idea, because everyone knew about my situation, but I reluctantly went anyway. I was right. When I went, almost everyone kept their distance, and they weren't subtle about it. I even overheard someone mocking me like I was crying and saying "Oh poor me, i'm gonna kill myself" It was awful. I thought back to this scene and could now relate to it on that level.
Going back to the genetics speech, I agree with Mark. In fact I made a choice very early on to never procreate because of this. I recognized this defect in me and knew that it would not be fair to pass it on. I have managed to at least be responsible in this respect, because a fifty percent chance of picking up this gene just isn't fair.

That's a tough story, must be difficult to talk about it. Thanks for sharing that.

I also thought it was the best scene of the movie, i feel sympathetic to Mark, not sure why seems like a honest, trustworthy person, unfairly acused.

I think it's like the guy above said, it's part genetics and part environment.
In my case, both my parents are self-conscious and shy, and i was brought up in an overprotective home. Because of that i have lots of problems interacting with people, i'm not aggresive or anything, but it's really difficult for me to make "connections" with others, friends, girls, that sort of stuff. And my sister has something similar going on. It may sound tragic, but i think not all people should be allowed to have children, there should be a ban when there's a high probability of *beep* it up. I mean, when they're not responsible enough to refrain from having kids, that is.
I also thought that i'd never leave a descendance, it would be unfair to "pass on" the defect to another human. And, besides, somewhat like Mark said, the planet's resources are rapidly dwindling, and it's quite unlikely that mankind will see the next century, unless dramatic changes occur.

Some interesting responses here.

My take on it is similar to Mark's in the film. It's not all programming but certainly your personality will effect how happy you are much more than your environment.

I'm not a really happy person, nor a really depressed person. Different things like getting a new job or a new relationship will make me happier initially but after a while I will go back to my base level of happiness.
The same can be said of sad things and hardships and I believe that if I lost everything and had to live in abject poverty I would be just as content once I got used to it.

interestingthanks for sharing your story Billy1210

no one can know the truth.

No. Thats not to say at one point in my life (childhood/teenage drug years) that I didn't believe in something similar, but now I know better :)

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