United 93 : Planes don't make a building literally collapse
Re: Planes don't make a building literally collapse
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4 October 1992: a 747-258F cargo plane crashed into two adjoining apartment buildings in Amsterdam, resulting in a partial collapse of both buildings.
http://radiobox2.omroep.nl/data/radiobox2/images/111/110673.png
http://radiobox2.omroep.nl/data/radiobox2/images/111/110673.png
Re: Planes don't make a building literally collapse
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"partial collapse"
Do I really need to speak or you got the message?
Do I really need to speak or you got the message?
Re: Planes don't make a building literally collapse
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"Planes don't make buildings collapse"
I want FACTUAL, credible sources for this statement.
Because those of us who don't wear tinfoil hats can give you loads of credible reasons why those buildings absolutely DID collapse due to this.
And for the record, no, the planes themselves did not collapse them. It was the results of such, and largely attributed to the jet fuel that burned, weakening (not melting) the steel. So had the planes struck the building WITH BARELY ANY JET FUEL, then yeah they may have remained standing, rather than collapsing.
I want FACTUAL, credible sources for this statement.
Because those of us who don't wear tinfoil hats can give you loads of credible reasons why those buildings absolutely DID collapse due to this.
And for the record, no, the planes themselves did not collapse them. It was the results of such, and largely attributed to the jet fuel that burned, weakening (not melting) the steel. So had the planes struck the building WITH BARELY ANY JET FUEL, then yeah they may have remained standing, rather than collapsing.
Re: Planes don't make a building literally collapse
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"It was the results of such, and largely attributed to the jet fuel that burned, weakening (not melting) the steel"
Man the heat doesn't magically spread around all the steel of a 400+ metters tower with such a small portion of the building being heat. Yes, it probably melt all the steel that was around the hitten area, but do you really think that the building would have stayed still until ALL the steel was weakened and then just sponteniously collapse one shot? As I said on another post, I would buy this statement with the north tower due to the fact that it was hitten way lower than the south tower and that the weight of the top part would have just destroyed the lower part by falling. But with the south tower, which was hit completely at the top, my logical sense tells me to stay really sceptical.
Man the heat doesn't magically spread around all the steel of a 400+ metters tower with such a small portion of the building being heat. Yes, it probably melt all the steel that was around the hitten area, but do you really think that the building would have stayed still until ALL the steel was weakened and then just sponteniously collapse one shot? As I said on another post, I would buy this statement with the north tower due to the fact that it was hitten way lower than the south tower and that the weight of the top part would have just destroyed the lower part by falling. But with the south tower, which was hit completely at the top, my logical sense tells me to stay really sceptical.
Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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'I reject your reality and substitute my own.'
What if the universe worked like that? It does not.
The architect who designed the buildings agreed after testing and analysis that the planes were flying bombs. They provided high temperatures that weakened the supports and caused the collapse of both structures. It's science. Denial doesn't keep them standing. If only it so did.
My husband was lucky enough to be on vacation that week. He usually flew that UAL Flight 93. He'd been flying that route for two months. He lost good friends and coworkers on that day. Blazer would be dead. I'll never forget what he said to me that morning. It chilled me to my soul. 'I thought I was safe flying domestic.'
A 767 or 757 at the beginning of its mission with full tanks is a flying fuel bomb. Wherever it crashes, it will burn fiercely due to a full load of fuel. Osama Bin Ladin carefully planned the attacks on the World Trade Center to bring them down. One suspects jingoism is somehow involved in this inability to believe.these attacks came from terrorists. While I personally believe that George W.Bush along with Dick Cheney and Secretary Rice failed miserably to protect us from terrorists, I do not believe that they blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Another reason I know that the latter did not happen is that my brother-in-law, Rear Admiral Richard Wallace was there at the Pentagon on 9/11 and he saw the plane crash into the building.
Enjoy your fantasy world but be aware that it has zero relationship to the real world where the rest of us are living. Feel fortunate that you live in a country where you can live freely in your own world. In most places you get locked up in the loony bin for that.
Great white sharks are attracted to death metal music.
What if the universe worked like that? It does not.
The architect who designed the buildings agreed after testing and analysis that the planes were flying bombs. They provided high temperatures that weakened the supports and caused the collapse of both structures. It's science. Denial doesn't keep them standing. If only it so did.
My husband was lucky enough to be on vacation that week. He usually flew that UAL Flight 93. He'd been flying that route for two months. He lost good friends and coworkers on that day. Blazer would be dead. I'll never forget what he said to me that morning. It chilled me to my soul. 'I thought I was safe flying domestic.'
A 767 or 757 at the beginning of its mission with full tanks is a flying fuel bomb. Wherever it crashes, it will burn fiercely due to a full load of fuel. Osama Bin Ladin carefully planned the attacks on the World Trade Center to bring them down. One suspects jingoism is somehow involved in this inability to believe.these attacks came from terrorists. While I personally believe that George W.Bush along with Dick Cheney and Secretary Rice failed miserably to protect us from terrorists, I do not believe that they blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Another reason I know that the latter did not happen is that my brother-in-law, Rear Admiral Richard Wallace was there at the Pentagon on 9/11 and he saw the plane crash into the building.
Enjoy your fantasy world but be aware that it has zero relationship to the real world where the rest of us are living. Feel fortunate that you live in a country where you can live freely in your own world. In most places you get locked up in the loony bin for that.
Great white sharks are attracted to death metal music.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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Actually, no. An top subordinate did the planning with intent to damage the complex. The buildings falling was a surprise for everyone.
Osama Bin Ladin carefully planned the attacks on the World Trade Center to bring them down.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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A surprisetimes 3. The third a double surprise since no plane hit it. Miraculous day for the terrorists, wasn't it.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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Time four. Two took out a Greek Orthodox church across the street.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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Hmm. A tiny, century-old, four-story church taken down by the debris of a collapsed skyscraper.
A much taller, sturdier building taken out by fire.
Which is more miraculous?
A much taller, sturdier building taken out by fire.
Which is more miraculous?
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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"They provided high temperatures that weakened the supports and caused the collapse of both structures."
I want a reliable source to support this statement? If you show me something that I can really rely on, I'll think about maybe changing my personnal opinion.
I want a reliable source to support this statement? If you show me something that I can really rely on, I'll think about maybe changing my personnal opinion.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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taran-rod - Here is a good place to start. I recommend you take a GOOD look at this website and ALL links.
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/home
Here is a link to the NIST report on the WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapse sequence.
http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/wtc_about.cfm
SUMMARY OF FINDINGS
Objective 1: Determine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft.
The two aircraft hit the towers at high speed and did considerable damage to principal structural components (core columns, floors, and perimeter columns) that were directly impacted by the aircraft or associated debris. However, the towers withstood the impacts and would have remained standing were it not for the dislodged insulation (fireproofing) and the subsequent multi-floor fires. The robustness of the perimeter frame-tube system and the large size of the buildings helped the towers withstand the impact. The structural system redistributed loads from places of aircraft impact, avoiding larger scale damage upon impact. The hat truss, a feature atop each tower which was intended to support a television antenna, prevented earlier collapse of the building core. In each tower, a different combination of impact damage and heat-weakened structural components contributed to the abrupt structural collapse.
In WTC 1, the fires weakened the core columns and caused the floors on the south side of the building to sag. The floors pulled the heated south perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the south wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by how long it took for the fires to weaken the building core and to reach the south side of the building and weaken the perimeter columns and floors.
In WTC 2, the core was damaged severely at the southeast corner and was restrained by the east and south walls via the hat truss and the floors. The steady burning fires on the east side of the building caused the floors there to sag. The floors pulled the heated east perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the east wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the east and to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by the time for the fires to weaken the perimeter columns and floor assemblies on the east and the south sides of the building. WTC2 collapsed more quickly than WTC 1 because there was more aircraft damage to the building core, including one of the heavily loaded corner columns, and there were early and persistent fires on the east side of the building, where the aircraft had extensively dislodged insulation from the structural steel.
The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires that were encountered on September11, 2001, if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.
In the absence of structural and insulation damage, a conventional fire substantially similar to or less intense than the fires encountered on September 11, 2001, likely would not have led to the collapse of a WTC tower.
NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly showed that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward, until the dust clouds obscured the view.
https://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/home
Here is a link to the NIST report on the WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapse sequence.
http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/wtc_about.cfm
SUMMARY OF FINDINGS
Objective 1: Determine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft.
The two aircraft hit the towers at high speed and did considerable damage to principal structural components (core columns, floors, and perimeter columns) that were directly impacted by the aircraft or associated debris. However, the towers withstood the impacts and would have remained standing were it not for the dislodged insulation (fireproofing) and the subsequent multi-floor fires. The robustness of the perimeter frame-tube system and the large size of the buildings helped the towers withstand the impact. The structural system redistributed loads from places of aircraft impact, avoiding larger scale damage upon impact. The hat truss, a feature atop each tower which was intended to support a television antenna, prevented earlier collapse of the building core. In each tower, a different combination of impact damage and heat-weakened structural components contributed to the abrupt structural collapse.
In WTC 1, the fires weakened the core columns and caused the floors on the south side of the building to sag. The floors pulled the heated south perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the south wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by how long it took for the fires to weaken the building core and to reach the south side of the building and weaken the perimeter columns and floors.
In WTC 2, the core was damaged severely at the southeast corner and was restrained by the east and south walls via the hat truss and the floors. The steady burning fires on the east side of the building caused the floors there to sag. The floors pulled the heated east perimeter columns inward, reducing their capacity to support the building above. Their neighboring columns quickly became overloaded as columns on the east wall buckled. The top section of the building tilted to the east and to the south and began its descent. The time from aircraft impact to collapse initiation was largely determined by the time for the fires to weaken the perimeter columns and floor assemblies on the east and the south sides of the building. WTC2 collapsed more quickly than WTC 1 because there was more aircraft damage to the building core, including one of the heavily loaded corner columns, and there were early and persistent fires on the east side of the building, where the aircraft had extensively dislodged insulation from the structural steel.
The WTC towers likely would not have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires that were encountered on September11, 2001, if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact.
In the absence of structural and insulation damage, a conventional fire substantially similar to or less intense than the fires encountered on September 11, 2001, likely would not have led to the collapse of a WTC tower.
NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly showed that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward, until the dust clouds obscured the view.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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Well, once again even though that I don't say that what you provided is false, I say that I read many articles just as credible if not more that proved otherwise. We all just make speculations anyway, we'll never know the real truth.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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Show me a peer-reviewed article that "proved otherwise".
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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I will do my research because there was one particular article which was really effective. I will try to find it tommorow and I'll post the link. But pal, sorry but the information you provided didn't explain how the heck did the towers collapsed the way they did
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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But pal, sorry but the information you provided didn't explain how the heck did the towers collapsed the way they did
So the NIST report, by experts in their fields of study, with hundreds of years of experience combined, did not explain it? It seems your mind is made up, and no amount of facts will change it.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
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Here's some more light reading for you. These are all peer-reviewed papers, studies, tests, and other documents by experts in the field that explain and support the hypothesis of the NIST report. Again, I am still looking for anything from you that contradicts any of this.
These are focused on analysis & modeling of progressive collapse.
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This first book is great. It's a structural engineer's explicitly discusses the analysis of progressive collapse of tall buildings, and includes a specific section on the WTC towers.
Its a little pricey, and you cannot download it. You have to read it on-line.
Structural Analysis and Design to Prevent Disproportionate Collapse,
Feng Fu, City University, London, UK
CRC Press.
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Papers that support NIST, Bibliography, Engineers info on collapse
And this one is superb. It discusses new ways that structural engineers have been generating, since 9/11, in order to analyze collapse of buildings.
Energy flow in progressive collapse of steel framed buildings
Stefan Szyniszewski, Ted Krauthammer
Bechtel Power Corporation, US Nuclear Projects, Frederick, MD 21703
Dept. of Civil and Coastal Engineering, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL
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Dominant Factor in the Collapse of WTC-1
Konstantinos Miamis, Ayhan Irfanoglu, and Mete A. Sozen
Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities Aug 2009, Vol. 23, No. 4, pp. 203-208
The behavior of the World Trade Center Tower 1 on September 11, 2001 is studied in light of experimental data on the effect of elevated temperature on mechanical properties of structural steel. It is concluded that the damage inflicted by aircraft impact on the insulation of the core framing was the dominant factor in the collapse of the structure.
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Irfanoglu, A. (2012). "Using Numerical Simulations and Engineering Reasoning under Uncertainty: Studying the Collapse of WTC-1." Computer-Aided Civil and Infrastructure Engineering, 10.1111/j.1467-8667.2010.00700.x, 65-76.
Online publication date: 1-Jan-2012
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J. of Performance of Constructed Facilities, ASCE, 06/2007
An Engineering Perspective of the Collapse of WTC-1
Ayhan Irfanoglu1 and Christoph M. Hoffmann
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Structural Response of WTC 7 Floor Systems to Fire
Therese McAllister and John L. Gross
Structures Congress 2010: 2351-2360.
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Omika Y., Fukuzawa E., Koshika N., Morikawa H., and Fukuda R. (2005).
Structural responses of World Trade Center under aircraft attacks.
J. Structural Engineering, 131(1), 6-15
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Wierzbicki T. and Teng X. (2003).
How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center.
Int. J. Impact Engineering, 28, 601-625
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Modeling Behavior and Failure of Steel Connections Subject to Elevated Temperatures
O. O. Erbay, A. T. Sarawit, and M. S. Zarghamee
Structures Congress 2010: 2361-2368.
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Steel Connection Design for Structural Integrity
Ronald O. Hamburger, Kurt Gustafson, and Ned L. Cleland
Structures Congress 2008: 1-9.
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Effects of Thermal Expansion and Support Restraints on Performance of Composite Floors in Fire
H. Mostafaei and F. Alfawakhiri
Structures Congress 2011: 427-438.
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Mechanical Properties of Structural Steel under Post-Impact Fire
Mahsa Mirmomeni, Amin Heidarpour, Xiao-Ling Zhao, Jeffrey A. Packer, and Chengqing Wu
Structures Congress 2015: 87-98.
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Stability Behavior and Design of Steel Columns under Fire Loading
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, Lisa Choe, and Guillermo Cedeno
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Analysis of Creep Buckling of Steel Columns Subjected to Fire
M. A. Morovat, J. Lee, M. D. Engelhardt, T. A. Helwig, and E. M. Taleff
Structures Congress 2011: 2929-2940.
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Stability Behavior of Steel Building Structures with Perimeter MRFs under Fire Loading Effects
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, and Guillermo Cedeno
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Behavior of Floor Systems under Realistic Fire Loading
Guillermo Cedeno, Amit H. Varma, and Anil Agarwal
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Fire Induced Progressive Collapse of Steel Building Structures
Anil Agarwal and Amit H. Varma
Structures Congress 2012: 235-245.
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New Fire Resistance Test for Loaded Unrestrained Beams
R. M. Berhinig and F. Alfawakhiri
Structures Congress 2014: 1175-1184.
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Methodologies for Progressive Collapse Analysis
Steven W. Kirkpatrick, Robert MacNeill, Joseph L. Smith, Kenneth Herrle, and Mikhael Erekson
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
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Systems for Structural Failure Investigations in the United States
Norbert J. Delatte
Forensic Engineering 2015: 569-578.
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Systems for Structural Failure Investigations in the United States
Norbert J. Delatte
Forensic Engineering 2015: 569-578.
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Symmetric and Asymmetric Collapse Mechanisms of a Multi-Story Steel Structure subjected to Gravity and Fire
Sami And Kilic and Serdar Selamet
Structures Congress 2013: 2545-2554.
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Building Code Evolution Due to Extreme Events
S. Nikolaou and R. Gilsanz
Geotechnical and Structural Engineering Congress 2016: 712-723.
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Behavior of Steel Single-Plate Beam End Framing Connections in Fire
Guanyu Hu and Michael D. Engelhardt
Structures Congress 2010: 1554-1565.
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Karim, M.R. and Fatt M.S.H. (2005). Impact of the Boeing 767 aircraft into the World Trade Center. J. Engineering Mechanics, 131(10), 1066-1072
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Procedure for Simplified Analysis of Perimeter Columns under Fire
Spencer E. Quiel, Maria E. Moreyra Garlock, and Ignacio Paya-Zaforteza
Structures Congress 2010: 1580-1591.
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Impact Resistance of Ductile Spray-Applied Fire-Resistive Materials
Qian Zhang and Victor C. Li
Structures Congress 2015: 1585-1595
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Ductile Fire-Resistive Material for Enhanced Fire Safety Under Multi-Hazards - A Feasibility Study
Qian Zhang and Victor C. Li
Structures Congress 2014: 1148-1158.
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Parameters Influencing Collapse Resistance of Building Structures Subjected to Fire Loading
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, and Kristi L. Selden
Structures Congress 2013: 2578-2589.
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Predicting the Standard Fire Behavior of Composite Steel Beams
Guillermo A. Cedeno, Amit H. Varma, and Jay Gore
Composite Construction in Steel and Concrete VI: 642-656.
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Investigation of Time-Dependent Buckling of Steel Columns Exposed to Fire Temperatures
M. A. Morovat, M. D. Engelhardt, T. A. Helwig, and E. M. Taleff
Structures Congress 2012: 2095-2106.
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Fu, F. (2009).
Progressive collapse analysis of high-rise building with 3-D finite element modeling method,
Journal of Constructional Steel Research, 65, 1269-1278.
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Hoffmann, C.; Popescu, V.; Kilic, S. A.; Sozen, M. (2004).
Modeling, simulation, and visualization: The Pentagon on September 11th,
Computing in Science & Engineering (CISE), 6(1), 52-60.
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Izzuddin, B.A., Vlassis, A.G., Elghazouli, A.Y., Nethercot, D.A. (2009). Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to sudden column loss Part I: Simplified assessment framework,
Engineering Structures, 30, 1308-1318.
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Kwasniewski, L. (2010).
Nonlinear dynamic simulations of progressive collapse for a multistory building,
Engineering Structures, 32, 1223-1235.
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Lange, D., Roeben, C., Usmani, A. (2012).
Tall building collapse mechanisms initiated by fire: Mechanisms and design methodology,
Engineering Structures, 36, 90-103
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Sadek, F., El-Tawil, S., Lew, H.S. (2008).
Robustness of composite floor systems with shear connections: Modeling, simulation, and evaluation,
Journal of Structural Engineering ASCE, 134 (11), 1717-1725
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Vlassis, A.G., Izzuddin, B.A., Elghazouli, A.Y., Nethercot, D.A. (2009).
Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to failed floor impact,
Engineering Structures, 31, 1552-1534.
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Selamet S and Garlock ME. (2010).
Local buckling study of flanges and webs in I-shapes at elevated temperatures.
Structures Congress, pages 15921603, Orlando, FL. ASCE
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Selamet S (2013).
The impact of fire scenario to the collapse of a tall structure.
SEMC Fifth International Conference on Structural Engineering, Mechanics and Computation, Cape Town, South Africa
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Modeling, Simulation, And Visualization: The Pentagon On September 11th
Chris Hoffmann, Voicu Popescu, Sami Kilic, And Mete Sozen
Purdue University
Computing In Science & Engineering, January/February 2004
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Flint, G., Usmani, A., Lamont, S., Lane, B., and Torero, J. (2007). "Structural Response of Tall Buildings to Multiple Floor Fires." J. Struct. Eng., 10.1061/(ASCE)0733-9445(2007)133:12(1719), 1719-1732.
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The World Trade Center 9/ll Disaster and Progressive Collapse of Tall Baildings
Panagiotis Kotsovinos anil Asij Usman, School of Engineering, The University
of Edinburgh, Edinburgh EH9 3JF. UK
July 20I2
DOI: 10.1007/210694-012-0283-8
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Study On Conditions For Preventing Progressive Collapse In Multistory Steel Frames
S. Minami and S. Yamazaki
Assistant Prof., Dept. of Architecture and Building Engineering, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Tokyo, Japan
Prof. Emeritus, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Tokyo, Japan
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/art05-05-0102.PDF
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All of these references have articles on one of the new, most important, previously neglected fields: Progressive Collapse.
All of these workshop reference the NIST Report.
Proceedings: Structures In Fires:
2nd International Workshop, 2002
Review Of The Performance Of Fire-exposed Buildings In The World Trade Center Incident Of September 11, 2001
James A. MILKE, Ph.D., P.E.
University of Maryland. Department of Fire Protection Engineering, College Park, MD, USA
Resistance Of Tall Buildings To Large Aircraft Impact And Fire
Gordon M E COOKE BSc PhD CEng MIMechE MICE FIFireE
International Fire Safety Consultant,
UK, London and Visiting Professor, School of Engineering, City University, London
Proceedings: Structures In Fires:
3rd International Workshop, 2004
4th International Workshop, 2005
5th International Workshop, 2006
6th International Workshop, 2010
7th International Workshop, 2012
8th International Workshop, 2014
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3-D Nonlinear Static Progressive Collapse Analysis of Multi-story Steel Braced Buildings
Tavakoli, Rashidi Alashti & Abdollahzadeh
Department of Civil Engineering, Babol University of Technology (BUT)
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/artE2012_1112.pdf
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Simulating the Coupled Fire-Thermal Structural Response of Complex Building Assemblies
Kuldeep Prasad And Howard R. Baum
Building and Fire Research Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Drive, Gaithersburg, MD 20899 USA
CTBUH, Oct. 2004, Seoul, S. Korea
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Fire Induced Progressive Collapse
David Scott, Barbara Lane, Craig Gibbons,
Arup, 155 Ave of the Americas, NY, NY10013
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.nibs.ocott_paper.pdf
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(Says nothing about WTC or 9/11, but interesting)
Progressive Collapse of Steel Frames
Kamel Sayed Kandil, Ehab Abd El Fattah Ellobody, Hanady Eldehemy
Department of Civil Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Menoufiya University, Shibin El Kom, Egypt;
Department of Structural Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Tanta University, Tanta, Egypt.
http://file.scirp.org/pdf/WJET_2013110513305822.pdf
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Progressive Collapse Analysis of Steel Structures under Fire Conditions
By Ruirui Sun (1), Zhaohui Huang (2) and Ian Burgess (3)
(1) PhD Research Student, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, the University of Sheffield, Sheffield, S1 3JD, UK
(2) Reader, School of Engineering and Design, Brunel University, Uxbridge, Middlesex, UB8 3PH
(3) Professor, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, the University of Sheffield,
Sheffield, S1 3JD, UK
1. Introduction
Structural engineers have a responsibility for incorporating fire safety into their building designs in order to minimize loss of life and property. The collapse of the twin towers of the World Trade Centre in New York was a reminder of the potential of fire to cause devastating failures of high-rise buildings by initiating progressive collapse.
http://dspace.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream2/Fulltext.pdf
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Abboud, N., Levy, M., Tennant, D., Mould, J., Levine, H., King, S., Ekwueme, C., Jain, A. and Hart, G. Anatomy of the World Trade Center Collapses: A Structural Engineering Investigation. Proceedings of the 3th Forensic Engineering Congress, ASCE, Oct. 19-21, San Diego, CA, 2003
[Abboud, 2010] Abboud, N., McArthur, C., Beyler, C., Fay, T., and Iwankiw, N. Significance of Common U.S. Construction Details on Fire Resilience of Structural Steel Floor Systems. Proceedings of the 6th International Conference on Structures in Fire, East Lansing, MI, 2010
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Quintiere, J. G., Di Marzo, M. and Becker, R., Fire Safety Journal, 37, 7, (2002) 707-716.
Usmani, A. S., Chung, Y. C., and Torero, J. L., Fire Safety Journal, 38, 6, (2003) 501-533.
Choi, S. K., Burgess, I. W., and Plank, R. J., The behavior of Lightweight Composite Floor Trusses in Fire, Designing Structure for Fire, Society of Fire Protection Engineers and Structural Engineering Institute, Baltimore, MD, 2003.
McAllister, T.P., ed., World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, preliminary observations and recommendations, Technical report FEMA 403, Federal Emergency Management Agency, (2002).
McGrattan, K. B., Baum H. R., Rehm, R. G., Hamins, A., Forney, G. P., Floyd, J. E., Hostikka, S., and Prasad, K., Fire Dynamics Simulator (Version 3) Technical Reference Guide National Institute of Standards and Technology Report NISTIR 6783, (2002).
Prasad, K. and Baum, H. R., Proc. Combust. Inst., 30 (2005) 2255-2262, doi:10.1016/j.proci.2004.08.118
These are focused on analysis & modeling of progressive collapse.
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This first book is great. It's a structural engineer's explicitly discusses the analysis of progressive collapse of tall buildings, and includes a specific section on the WTC towers.
Its a little pricey, and you cannot download it. You have to read it on-line.
Structural Analysis and Design to Prevent Disproportionate Collapse,
Feng Fu, City University, London, UK
CRC Press.
___
Papers that support NIST, Bibliography, Engineers info on collapse
And this one is superb. It discusses new ways that structural engineers have been generating, since 9/11, in order to analyze collapse of buildings.
Energy flow in progressive collapse of steel framed buildings
Stefan Szyniszewski, Ted Krauthammer
Bechtel Power Corporation, US Nuclear Projects, Frederick, MD 21703
Dept. of Civil and Coastal Engineering, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL
__
Dominant Factor in the Collapse of WTC-1
Konstantinos Miamis, Ayhan Irfanoglu, and Mete A. Sozen
Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities Aug 2009, Vol. 23, No. 4, pp. 203-208
The behavior of the World Trade Center Tower 1 on September 11, 2001 is studied in light of experimental data on the effect of elevated temperature on mechanical properties of structural steel. It is concluded that the damage inflicted by aircraft impact on the insulation of the core framing was the dominant factor in the collapse of the structure.
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Irfanoglu, A. (2012). "Using Numerical Simulations and Engineering Reasoning under Uncertainty: Studying the Collapse of WTC-1." Computer-Aided Civil and Infrastructure Engineering, 10.1111/j.1467-8667.2010.00700.x, 65-76.
Online publication date: 1-Jan-2012
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J. of Performance of Constructed Facilities, ASCE, 06/2007
An Engineering Perspective of the Collapse of WTC-1
Ayhan Irfanoglu1 and Christoph M. Hoffmann
__
Structural Response of WTC 7 Floor Systems to Fire
Therese McAllister and John L. Gross
Structures Congress 2010: 2351-2360.
__
Omika Y., Fukuzawa E., Koshika N., Morikawa H., and Fukuda R. (2005).
Structural responses of World Trade Center under aircraft attacks.
J. Structural Engineering, 131(1), 6-15
__
Wierzbicki T. and Teng X. (2003).
How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center.
Int. J. Impact Engineering, 28, 601-625
__
Modeling Behavior and Failure of Steel Connections Subject to Elevated Temperatures
O. O. Erbay, A. T. Sarawit, and M. S. Zarghamee
Structures Congress 2010: 2361-2368.
__
Steel Connection Design for Structural Integrity
Ronald O. Hamburger, Kurt Gustafson, and Ned L. Cleland
Structures Congress 2008: 1-9.
__
Effects of Thermal Expansion and Support Restraints on Performance of Composite Floors in Fire
H. Mostafaei and F. Alfawakhiri
Structures Congress 2011: 427-438.
__
Mechanical Properties of Structural Steel under Post-Impact Fire
Mahsa Mirmomeni, Amin Heidarpour, Xiao-Ling Zhao, Jeffrey A. Packer, and Chengqing Wu
Structures Congress 2015: 87-98.
__
Stability Behavior and Design of Steel Columns under Fire Loading
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, Lisa Choe, and Guillermo Cedeno
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
__
Analysis of Creep Buckling of Steel Columns Subjected to Fire
M. A. Morovat, J. Lee, M. D. Engelhardt, T. A. Helwig, and E. M. Taleff
Structures Congress 2011: 2929-2940.
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Stability Behavior of Steel Building Structures with Perimeter MRFs under Fire Loading Effects
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, and Guillermo Cedeno
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
__
Behavior of Floor Systems under Realistic Fire Loading
Guillermo Cedeno, Amit H. Varma, and Anil Agarwal
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
__
Fire Induced Progressive Collapse of Steel Building Structures
Anil Agarwal and Amit H. Varma
Structures Congress 2012: 235-245.
__
New Fire Resistance Test for Loaded Unrestrained Beams
R. M. Berhinig and F. Alfawakhiri
Structures Congress 2014: 1175-1184.
__
Methodologies for Progressive Collapse Analysis
Steven W. Kirkpatrick, Robert MacNeill, Joseph L. Smith, Kenneth Herrle, and Mikhael Erekson
Structures Congress 2009: 1-10.
__
Systems for Structural Failure Investigations in the United States
Norbert J. Delatte
Forensic Engineering 2015: 569-578.
__
Systems for Structural Failure Investigations in the United States
Norbert J. Delatte
Forensic Engineering 2015: 569-578.
__
Symmetric and Asymmetric Collapse Mechanisms of a Multi-Story Steel Structure subjected to Gravity and Fire
Sami And Kilic and Serdar Selamet
Structures Congress 2013: 2545-2554.
__
Building Code Evolution Due to Extreme Events
S. Nikolaou and R. Gilsanz
Geotechnical and Structural Engineering Congress 2016: 712-723.
__
Behavior of Steel Single-Plate Beam End Framing Connections in Fire
Guanyu Hu and Michael D. Engelhardt
Structures Congress 2010: 1554-1565.
__
Karim, M.R. and Fatt M.S.H. (2005). Impact of the Boeing 767 aircraft into the World Trade Center. J. Engineering Mechanics, 131(10), 1066-1072
__
Procedure for Simplified Analysis of Perimeter Columns under Fire
Spencer E. Quiel, Maria E. Moreyra Garlock, and Ignacio Paya-Zaforteza
Structures Congress 2010: 1580-1591.
__
Impact Resistance of Ductile Spray-Applied Fire-Resistive Materials
Qian Zhang and Victor C. Li
Structures Congress 2015: 1585-1595
__
Ductile Fire-Resistive Material for Enhanced Fire Safety Under Multi-Hazards - A Feasibility Study
Qian Zhang and Victor C. Li
Structures Congress 2014: 1148-1158.
__
Parameters Influencing Collapse Resistance of Building Structures Subjected to Fire Loading
Anil Agarwal, Amit H. Varma, and Kristi L. Selden
Structures Congress 2013: 2578-2589.
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Predicting the Standard Fire Behavior of Composite Steel Beams
Guillermo A. Cedeno, Amit H. Varma, and Jay Gore
Composite Construction in Steel and Concrete VI: 642-656.
__
Investigation of Time-Dependent Buckling of Steel Columns Exposed to Fire Temperatures
M. A. Morovat, M. D. Engelhardt, T. A. Helwig, and E. M. Taleff
Structures Congress 2012: 2095-2106.
__
Fu, F. (2009).
Progressive collapse analysis of high-rise building with 3-D finite element modeling method,
Journal of Constructional Steel Research, 65, 1269-1278.
__
Hoffmann, C.; Popescu, V.; Kilic, S. A.; Sozen, M. (2004).
Modeling, simulation, and visualization: The Pentagon on September 11th,
Computing in Science & Engineering (CISE), 6(1), 52-60.
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Izzuddin, B.A., Vlassis, A.G., Elghazouli, A.Y., Nethercot, D.A. (2009). Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to sudden column loss Part I: Simplified assessment framework,
Engineering Structures, 30, 1308-1318.
__
Kwasniewski, L. (2010).
Nonlinear dynamic simulations of progressive collapse for a multistory building,
Engineering Structures, 32, 1223-1235.
__
Lange, D., Roeben, C., Usmani, A. (2012).
Tall building collapse mechanisms initiated by fire: Mechanisms and design methodology,
Engineering Structures, 36, 90-103
__
Sadek, F., El-Tawil, S., Lew, H.S. (2008).
Robustness of composite floor systems with shear connections: Modeling, simulation, and evaluation,
Journal of Structural Engineering ASCE, 134 (11), 1717-1725
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Vlassis, A.G., Izzuddin, B.A., Elghazouli, A.Y., Nethercot, D.A. (2009).
Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to failed floor impact,
Engineering Structures, 31, 1552-1534.
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Selamet S and Garlock ME. (2010).
Local buckling study of flanges and webs in I-shapes at elevated temperatures.
Structures Congress, pages 15921603, Orlando, FL. ASCE
__
Selamet S (2013).
The impact of fire scenario to the collapse of a tall structure.
SEMC Fifth International Conference on Structural Engineering, Mechanics and Computation, Cape Town, South Africa
__
Modeling, Simulation, And Visualization: The Pentagon On September 11th
Chris Hoffmann, Voicu Popescu, Sami Kilic, And Mete Sozen
Purdue University
Computing In Science & Engineering, January/February 2004
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Flint, G., Usmani, A., Lamont, S., Lane, B., and Torero, J. (2007). "Structural Response of Tall Buildings to Multiple Floor Fires." J. Struct. Eng., 10.1061/(ASCE)0733-9445(2007)133:12(1719), 1719-1732.
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The World Trade Center 9/ll Disaster and Progressive Collapse of Tall Baildings
Panagiotis Kotsovinos anil Asij Usman, School of Engineering, The University
of Edinburgh, Edinburgh EH9 3JF. UK
July 20I2
DOI: 10.1007/210694-012-0283-8
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Study On Conditions For Preventing Progressive Collapse In Multistory Steel Frames
S. Minami and S. Yamazaki
Assistant Prof., Dept. of Architecture and Building Engineering, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Tokyo, Japan
Prof. Emeritus, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Tokyo, Japan
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/art05-05-0102.PDF
__
All of these references have articles on one of the new, most important, previously neglected fields: Progressive Collapse.
All of these workshop reference the NIST Report.
Proceedings: Structures In Fires:
2nd International Workshop, 2002
Review Of The Performance Of Fire-exposed Buildings In The World Trade Center Incident Of September 11, 2001
James A. MILKE, Ph.D., P.E.
University of Maryland. Department of Fire Protection Engineering, College Park, MD, USA
Resistance Of Tall Buildings To Large Aircraft Impact And Fire
Gordon M E COOKE BSc PhD CEng MIMechE MICE FIFireE
International Fire Safety Consultant,
UK, London and Visiting Professor, School of Engineering, City University, London
Proceedings: Structures In Fires:
3rd International Workshop, 2004
4th International Workshop, 2005
5th International Workshop, 2006
6th International Workshop, 2010
7th International Workshop, 2012
8th International Workshop, 2014
__
3-D Nonlinear Static Progressive Collapse Analysis of Multi-story Steel Braced Buildings
Tavakoli, Rashidi Alashti & Abdollahzadeh
Department of Civil Engineering, Babol University of Technology (BUT)
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/artE2012_1112.pdf
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Simulating the Coupled Fire-Thermal Structural Response of Complex Building Assemblies
Kuldeep Prasad And Howard R. Baum
Building and Fire Research Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
100 Bureau Drive, Gaithersburg, MD 20899 USA
CTBUH, Oct. 2004, Seoul, S. Korea
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Fire Induced Progressive Collapse
David Scott, Barbara Lane, Craig Gibbons,
Arup, 155 Ave of the Americas, NY, NY10013
https://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.nibs.ocott_paper.pdf
___
(Says nothing about WTC or 9/11, but interesting)
Progressive Collapse of Steel Frames
Kamel Sayed Kandil, Ehab Abd El Fattah Ellobody, Hanady Eldehemy
Department of Civil Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Menoufiya University, Shibin El Kom, Egypt;
Department of Structural Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Tanta University, Tanta, Egypt.
http://file.scirp.org/pdf/WJET_2013110513305822.pdf
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Progressive Collapse Analysis of Steel Structures under Fire Conditions
By Ruirui Sun (1), Zhaohui Huang (2) and Ian Burgess (3)
(1) PhD Research Student, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, the University of Sheffield, Sheffield, S1 3JD, UK
(2) Reader, School of Engineering and Design, Brunel University, Uxbridge, Middlesex, UB8 3PH
(3) Professor, Department of Civil and Structural Engineering, the University of Sheffield,
Sheffield, S1 3JD, UK
1. Introduction
Structural engineers have a responsibility for incorporating fire safety into their building designs in order to minimize loss of life and property. The collapse of the twin towers of the World Trade Centre in New York was a reminder of the potential of fire to cause devastating failures of high-rise buildings by initiating progressive collapse.
http://dspace.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream2/Fulltext.pdf
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Abboud, N., Levy, M., Tennant, D., Mould, J., Levine, H., King, S., Ekwueme, C., Jain, A. and Hart, G. Anatomy of the World Trade Center Collapses: A Structural Engineering Investigation. Proceedings of the 3th Forensic Engineering Congress, ASCE, Oct. 19-21, San Diego, CA, 2003
[Abboud, 2010] Abboud, N., McArthur, C., Beyler, C., Fay, T., and Iwankiw, N. Significance of Common U.S. Construction Details on Fire Resilience of Structural Steel Floor Systems. Proceedings of the 6th International Conference on Structures in Fire, East Lansing, MI, 2010
__
Quintiere, J. G., Di Marzo, M. and Becker, R., Fire Safety Journal, 37, 7, (2002) 707-716.
Usmani, A. S., Chung, Y. C., and Torero, J. L., Fire Safety Journal, 38, 6, (2003) 501-533.
Choi, S. K., Burgess, I. W., and Plank, R. J., The behavior of Lightweight Composite Floor Trusses in Fire, Designing Structure for Fire, Society of Fire Protection Engineers and Structural Engineering Institute, Baltimore, MD, 2003.
McAllister, T.P., ed., World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, preliminary observations and recommendations, Technical report FEMA 403, Federal Emergency Management Agency, (2002).
McGrattan, K. B., Baum H. R., Rehm, R. G., Hamins, A., Forney, G. P., Floyd, J. E., Hostikka, S., and Prasad, K., Fire Dynamics Simulator (Version 3) Technical Reference Guide National Institute of Standards and Technology Report NISTIR 6783, (2002).
Prasad, K. and Baum, H. R., Proc. Combust. Inst., 30 (2005) 2255-2262, doi:10.1016/j.proci.2004.08.118
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
Jeez, okay just because you invest all your heart into finding "reliable" sources and copy/paste them her won't change my opinion. And honestly I have better to do than trying to prove to a retarded republican american some logic that he won't even listen anyway. Do your own research and not only into the direction that makes your weak heart warm for christ's sake.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
So your mind is made up, you're not going to let any facts get in your way, right? You have brought nothing to this. Time to move on.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.
Post deleted
This message has been deleted.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
USAFMXOfficer said: "So the NIST report, by experts in their fields of study, with hundreds of years of experience combined, did not explain it?"
==============
NIST is NOT a reliable source of information, they are just a controlled arm of the government, the Department of Commerce. They will say whatever they are told to.
FEMA is also government controlled.
The 9/11 (C)ommission was very much government controlled.(See Phillip Zelikow)
PENTTBOM was also government controlled.
The 9/11 Joint Inquiry was also government controlled.
Government hacks who are funded by the government or dependent on government contracts are used to make and back up the governments lies.
For anyone whose not a blind government sheep see 9-11 in the Academic Community https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F2TWZ1xfJI
You either parrot the official government version or you will be fired and labeled a crazy kook for questioning the known liars/criminals in the government and the corporate/CIA owned media.
=======
USAFMXOfficer Which official 9/11 collapse theory do you believe and why?
1) On and right after 9/11, "experts" said: - Towering Inferno, Steel melted, later backtracked.
2) Or FEMA - Floor failure: "A pancake-type collapse of successive floors" this is just their best guess, FEMA even admits:
"With the information and time available, the sequence of events leading to the collapse of each tower could not be definitively determined."
-from http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_execsum.pdf
3) Or Silverstein/Weidlinger - Column failure only, this theory was for the insurance suit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/22/nyregion/expert-report-disputes-us-on-collapse.html
4) Or NIST - External column failure from sagging floors and softened core columns, etc leading to pile driver collapse.
http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtctowers.cfm
This also is just their best guess, NIST even admits:
"The focus of the Investigation was on the sequence of events from the instant of aircraft impact to the initiation of collapse for each tower. For brevity in this report, this sequence is referred to as the probable collapse sequence, although it includes little analysis of the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached and collapse became inevitable."
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=909017 Page 39 on PDF counter, page xxxvii on document
So no, NIST did NOT explain the total destruction of both Towers. NIST only gave a probable collapse sequence and not even a full one.
==============
"The reader should bear in mind that the described damage to the building exterior was derived from eyewitness and
photographic evidence. The described damage to the aircraft and the building interior was deemed most likely from the
computer simulations and analysis carried out under the Investigation." <<
NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation
Footnote 5, pg 20 on document pg 70 PDF counter
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=909017
======
Also conflicts of interest should be avoided but NIST used specialists/contractors who were dependent on government contracts or on the official story itself.
NIST states that it found no documents about fire resistance testing, yet it also states that the buildings were rated as Class 1B, which requires such testing.
==============
NIST is NOT a reliable source of information, they are just a controlled arm of the government, the Department of Commerce. They will say whatever they are told to.
FEMA is also government controlled.
The 9/11 (C)ommission was very much government controlled.(See Phillip Zelikow)
PENTTBOM was also government controlled.
The 9/11 Joint Inquiry was also government controlled.
Government hacks who are funded by the government or dependent on government contracts are used to make and back up the governments lies.
For anyone whose not a blind government sheep see 9-11 in the Academic Community https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F2TWZ1xfJI
You either parrot the official government version or you will be fired and labeled a crazy kook for questioning the known liars/criminals in the government and the corporate/CIA owned media.
=======
USAFMXOfficer Which official 9/11 collapse theory do you believe and why?
1) On and right after 9/11, "experts" said: - Towering Inferno, Steel melted, later backtracked.
2) Or FEMA - Floor failure: "A pancake-type collapse of successive floors" this is just their best guess, FEMA even admits:
"With the information and time available, the sequence of events leading to the collapse of each tower could not be definitively determined."
-from http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_execsum.pdf
3) Or Silverstein/Weidlinger - Column failure only, this theory was for the insurance suit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/22/nyregion/expert-report-disputes-us-on-collapse.html
4) Or NIST - External column failure from sagging floors and softened core columns, etc leading to pile driver collapse.
http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtctowers.cfm
This also is just their best guess, NIST even admits:
"The focus of the Investigation was on the sequence of events from the instant of aircraft impact to the initiation of collapse for each tower. For brevity in this report, this sequence is referred to as the probable collapse sequence, although it includes little analysis of the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached and collapse became inevitable."
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=909017 Page 39 on PDF counter, page xxxvii on document
So no, NIST did NOT explain the total destruction of both Towers. NIST only gave a probable collapse sequence and not even a full one.
==============
"The reader should bear in mind that the described damage to the building exterior was derived from eyewitness and
photographic evidence. The described damage to the aircraft and the building interior was deemed most likely from the
computer simulations and analysis carried out under the Investigation." <<
NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation
Footnote 5, pg 20 on document pg 70 PDF counter
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=909017
======
Also conflicts of interest should be avoided but NIST used specialists/contractors who were dependent on government contracts or on the official story itself.
NIST states that it found no documents about fire resistance testing, yet it also states that the buildings were rated as Class 1B, which requires such testing.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
Ahhh yes and Justabox goes right to Chapter 5, Verse 3 of the Truther Bible, which states "Whenever you are presented factual information that contradicts your position, immediately claim that information is false, due to it coming from the Government"
Got anything else, or is that basically it?
Got anything else, or is that basically it?
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
And what of Szyniszewski, Miamis, McAllister, Hamburger, etc.? They were all paid off by the eeevil gub'mint, right?
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
definitely_notknight_c6 said:
"And what of Szyniszewski, Miamis, McAllister, Hamburger, etc.? They were all paid off by the eeevil gub'mint, right?"
================
They are either funded by or work directly for the government. Or work for a company that gets millions/billions in government contracts. You either play the game and parrot and support the governments conflicting official conspiracy theory of 9/11 or you lose your job and are labeled a kook or worse.
Anytime someone speaks out against the governments lies and illegal terrorists acts they are either ignored or ridiculed by the corporate/CIA owned media.
Mete Sozen worked with Gene Corley, Paul Mlakar and Charles Thornton on the report of the Oklahoma City bombinganother government false flag attack.
WTC - Sozen (again together with Gene Corley, Charles Thornton and Paul Mlakar) was a team leader of the ASCE investigation (later the FEMA investigation) of the destruction of the WTC. Sozen also led a team that created an engineering simulation of American Airlines Flight 11 crashing into the North Tower of the World Trade Center. The computeranimated visualizations were made entirely from the simulation data.
Mete Sozen also worked on the report of the Pentagon, coauthoring The Pentagon Building Performance Report with Paul E. Mlakar.
Gene Corley and Mete Sozen worked for many years for the US Department of Defense through the Blast Mitigation for Structures Program (BMSP)
Here's just a small list of consulting firms for the Department of Defense's Blast Mitigation Action Group (BMAG)
ARUP
Applied Research Associates
Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC)
Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Inc
Thornton-Tomasetti Group
Weidlinger Associates, Inc.
The rest of the list is here: http://arlweb.msha.gov/Ventilation2007/Presentations/09-SealPlanApprovals.pdf
Weidlinger Associates merged with Thornton Tomasetti in September 2015
Stefan Szyniszewski has worked for the US Army
Konstantinos Miamis's advisor was Mete A. Sozen
Ron Hamburger is Senior Principal, Director, Western Region SE Head at Simpson Gumpertz & Heger, he has been with SG&H since 2002.
Therese McAllister has worked with well known liars like Gene Corley, John L. Gross and Shyam Sunder, all are NIST puppets.
It is much easier for the government to reuse hacks from previous false flag attacks and coverups, it streamlines the lies and b.s. the government is trying to push at the time.
People who work for the government or are funded by the government or work for companies that get millions/billions in government contracts are used as "independent experts" to back up the governments lies.
"And what of Szyniszewski, Miamis, McAllister, Hamburger, etc.? They were all paid off by the eeevil gub'mint, right?"
================
They are either funded by or work directly for the government. Or work for a company that gets millions/billions in government contracts. You either play the game and parrot and support the governments conflicting official conspiracy theory of 9/11 or you lose your job and are labeled a kook or worse.
Anytime someone speaks out against the governments lies and illegal terrorists acts they are either ignored or ridiculed by the corporate/CIA owned media.
Mete Sozen worked with Gene Corley, Paul Mlakar and Charles Thornton on the report of the Oklahoma City bombinganother government false flag attack.
WTC - Sozen (again together with Gene Corley, Charles Thornton and Paul Mlakar) was a team leader of the ASCE investigation (later the FEMA investigation) of the destruction of the WTC. Sozen also led a team that created an engineering simulation of American Airlines Flight 11 crashing into the North Tower of the World Trade Center. The computeranimated visualizations were made entirely from the simulation data.
Mete Sozen also worked on the report of the Pentagon, coauthoring The Pentagon Building Performance Report with Paul E. Mlakar.
Gene Corley and Mete Sozen worked for many years for the US Department of Defense through the Blast Mitigation for Structures Program (BMSP)
Here's just a small list of consulting firms for the Department of Defense's Blast Mitigation Action Group (BMAG)
ARUP
Applied Research Associates
Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC)
Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Inc
Thornton-Tomasetti Group
Weidlinger Associates, Inc.
The rest of the list is here: http://arlweb.msha.gov/Ventilation2007/Presentations/09-SealPlanApprovals.pdf
Weidlinger Associates merged with Thornton Tomasetti in September 2015
Stefan Szyniszewski has worked for the US Army
Konstantinos Miamis's advisor was Mete A. Sozen
Ron Hamburger is Senior Principal, Director, Western Region SE Head at Simpson Gumpertz & Heger, he has been with SG&H since 2002.
Therese McAllister has worked with well known liars like Gene Corley, John L. Gross and Shyam Sunder, all are NIST puppets.
It is much easier for the government to reuse hacks from previous false flag attacks and coverups, it streamlines the lies and b.s. the government is trying to push at the time.
People who work for the government or are funded by the government or work for companies that get millions/billions in government contracts are used as "independent experts" to back up the governments lies.
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
"Whenever you are presented factual information that contradicts your position, immediately claim that information is false"That's actually Chapter 1 Verse 1 of the government sheep biblenice try thou.
That's exactly what you and other government sheep do when facts get in the way of the conflicting official conspiracy theory of 9/11 which is full of Conflicts of interest, Resistance to investigations, Unreliable evidence, if any, Investigations set up to fail, The Chairman saying the White house is playing cover up, Investigators not being given important info, Destroying literally tons of evidence, Conflicting accounts, Conflicting timelines
Anyone who is not a blind government sheep or paid shill knows the government and corporate/CIA owned media are filled with known liars and criminals and EVERYTHING they say is suspect.
NIST did not explain the total destruction of the towers, all they gave was a few partial computer simulations whose data inputs are classified and a partial probable collapse sequence, that's it.
====================
USAFMXOfficer said:
"These are all peer-reviewed papers, studies, tests, and other documents by experts in the field that explain and support the hypothesis of the NIST report. Again, I am still looking for anything from you that contradicts any of this."
Your "peer reviewed" papers do a great job of contradicting NIST on there own.
Peer review is clearly nothing more than a rubber stamp process. They obviously don't even read what they are suppose to be peer reviewing.
So are you also tfk or did you just copy/paste the list from the so called international skeptics forum.which has no skeptics on it, just government shills who attack and ridicule anyone who questions the governments conflicting official conspiracy theory.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11364679
Also why did you cut out this link when you copy/pasted your "peer reviewed facts"? http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=cee_articles
Did you even bother to read any of these "peer reviewed" papers or just copy/paste them so you could have something to post?
=============
Here's some highlights from "peer reviewed" papers:
Impacts and Analysis for Buildings under Terrorist Attacks
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=cee_articles
This "peer reviewed" paper said progressive collapse for the WTC towers but NIST disagrees.
NIST said: "Progressive collapse did NOT occur in the WTC towers"
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.cfm
NIST also said:
"NISTs findings do not support the pancake theory of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towersthe floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_faqs_082006.cfm
This "peer reviewed" paper also said no structural components damaged by fireball but NIST disagrees with that too:
NIST said:
Fatal injuries were reported on floors as low as the
Concourse Level, where a fireball swept through the lobby.
-pg 23 on document pg 73 PDF counter
Some of the burning fuel shot up and down the elevator shafts, blowing out doors and walls on other floors all the way down to the basement. Flash fires in the lobby blew out many of the plate glass windows.
-pg 24 on document pg 74 on PDF counter
From - NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=909017
================
STUDY ON CONDITIONS FOR PREVENTING PROGRESSIVE COLLAPSE IN MULTISTORY STEEL FRAMES
S. Minami and S. Yamazaki
Said: "The World Trade Center disaster on September 11, 2001, is a typical case of a progressive collapse [AIJ, Bazant]."
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/article/14_05-05-0102.PDF
==================
Resistance Of Tall Buildings To Large Aircraft Impact And Fire
Gordon M E COOKE BSc PhD CEng MIMechE MICE FIFireE
International Fire Safety Consultant,
UK, London and Visiting Professor, School of Engineering, City University, London
http://www.civil.canterbury.ac.nz/sif/paper11.pdf
This "peer reviewed" paper said:
"North tower was hit at 8.45 am by a hi-jacked Boeing 767 passenger jet loaded with fuel.
At 9.03 am the South tower was hit by a hi-jacked Boeing 757 at the 83rd floor.
The South tower collapsed at 10:05 am and the North tower collapsed at 10:30 am." <<
This "peer reviewed" paper has: Two different collapse times for WTC 1, the wrong impact time for flight 11, wrong plane type for south toweronly 767's hit towers, wrong collapse times, should be 9:59am and 10:28am, neither plane was loaded with fuelhalf full at most and a lot of that half was burned up in initial fireball and it shows flight 175 hitting the wrong side of WTC 2, Your "peer reviewed" paper shows the plane hitting the east side of WTC 2 but it hit the south side.
Wow, yeah those "experts" got their "facts" mixed up a bit and they seem to have a problem with numbers. LMFAO
Do you have anything other than denials, rationalizations, lies and acting like a condescending jerk? Or is that basically it?
That's exactly what you and other government sheep do when facts get in the way of the conflicting official conspiracy theory of 9/11 which is full of Conflicts of interest, Resistance to investigations, Unreliable evidence, if any, Investigations set up to fail, The Chairman saying the White house is playing cover up, Investigators not being given important info, Destroying literally tons of evidence, Conflicting accounts, Conflicting timelines
Anyone who is not a blind government sheep or paid shill knows the government and corporate/CIA owned media are filled with known liars and criminals and EVERYTHING they say is suspect.
NIST did not explain the total destruction of the towers, all they gave was a few partial computer simulations whose data inputs are classified and a partial probable collapse sequence, that's it.
====================
USAFMXOfficer said:
"These are all peer-reviewed papers, studies, tests, and other documents by experts in the field that explain and support the hypothesis of the NIST report. Again, I am still looking for anything from you that contradicts any of this."
Your "peer reviewed" papers do a great job of contradicting NIST on there own.
Peer review is clearly nothing more than a rubber stamp process. They obviously don't even read what they are suppose to be peer reviewing.
So are you also tfk or did you just copy/paste the list from the so called international skeptics forum.which has no skeptics on it, just government shills who attack and ridicule anyone who questions the governments conflicting official conspiracy theory.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11364679
Also why did you cut out this link when you copy/pasted your "peer reviewed facts"? http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=cee_articles
Did you even bother to read any of these "peer reviewed" papers or just copy/paste them so you could have something to post?
=============
Here's some highlights from "peer reviewed" papers:
Impacts and Analysis for Buildings under Terrorist Attacks
http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=cee_articles
This "peer reviewed" paper said progressive collapse for the WTC towers but NIST disagrees.
NIST said: "Progressive collapse did NOT occur in the WTC towers"
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.cfm
NIST also said:
"NISTs findings do not support the pancake theory of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towersthe floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_faqs_082006.cfm
This "peer reviewed" paper also said no structural components damaged by fireball but NIST disagrees with that too:
NIST said:
Fatal injuries were reported on floors as low as the
Concourse Level, where a fireball swept through the lobby.
-pg 23 on document pg 73 PDF counter
Some of the burning fuel shot up and down the elevator shafts, blowing out doors and walls on other floors all the way down to the basement. Flash fires in the lobby blew out many of the plate glass windows.
-pg 24 on document pg 74 on PDF counter
From - NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation
http://www.nist.gov/customcf/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=909017
================
STUDY ON CONDITIONS FOR PREVENTING PROGRESSIVE COLLAPSE IN MULTISTORY STEEL FRAMES
S. Minami and S. Yamazaki
Said: "The World Trade Center disaster on September 11, 2001, is a typical case of a progressive collapse [AIJ, Bazant]."
http://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/article/14_05-05-0102.PDF
==================
Resistance Of Tall Buildings To Large Aircraft Impact And Fire
Gordon M E COOKE BSc PhD CEng MIMechE MICE FIFireE
International Fire Safety Consultant,
UK, London and Visiting Professor, School of Engineering, City University, London
http://www.civil.canterbury.ac.nz/sif/paper11.pdf
This "peer reviewed" paper said:
"North tower was hit at 8.45 am by a hi-jacked Boeing 767 passenger jet loaded with fuel.
At 9.03 am the South tower was hit by a hi-jacked Boeing 757 at the 83rd floor.
The South tower collapsed at 10:05 am and the North tower collapsed at 10:30 am." <<
This "peer reviewed" paper has: Two different collapse times for WTC 1, the wrong impact time for flight 11, wrong plane type for south toweronly 767's hit towers, wrong collapse times, should be 9:59am and 10:28am, neither plane was loaded with fuelhalf full at most and a lot of that half was burned up in initial fireball and it shows flight 175 hitting the wrong side of WTC 2, Your "peer reviewed" paper shows the plane hitting the east side of WTC 2 but it hit the south side.
Wow, yeah those "experts" got their "facts" mixed up a bit and they seem to have a problem with numbers. LMFAO
Do you have anything other than denials, rationalizations, lies and acting like a condescending jerk? Or is that basically it?
Re: Yes. They did on 9/11. My brother-in-law was at the Pentagon…
Reply |
Oh dearall a bit long and complicated for you, I guess?
Here's some simpler reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance (see especially section entitled Belief disconfirmation paradigm)
Still lots of long words, I'm afraid, but give it a shot.
P.S. I'm not a Republican - in fact I'm not an American. My politics by American standards are generally pretty left/liberal - I'm usually called a 'libtard' by die-hard Republicans, for whom I have no more affection than you. But this is in any case irrelevant to understanding 9/11, and you really need to get over this binary view of human beings: Democrats can often talk nonsense and even Republicans sometimes talk sense.
Here's some simpler reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance (see especially section entitled Belief disconfirmation paradigm)
Still lots of long words, I'm afraid, but give it a shot.
P.S. I'm not a Republican - in fact I'm not an American. My politics by American standards are generally pretty left/liberal - I'm usually called a 'libtard' by die-hard Republicans, for whom I have no more affection than you. But this is in any case irrelevant to understanding 9/11, and you really need to get over this binary view of human beings: Democrats can often talk nonsense and even Republicans sometimes talk sense.
Re: Planes don't make a building literally collapse
Reply |
You come on the message board about United 93 which didn't hit ANY buildings just to troll about the Twin Towers?
You really have serious problems.
Oh God. There's nothing more inconvenient than an old queen with a head cold!
You really have serious problems.
Oh God. There's nothing more inconvenient than an old queen with a head cold!
Re: Planes don't make a building literally collapse
Reply |
Kamal Obeid
S.E. Structural Engineer
"Structural engineers and other building professionals need to understand that these buildings did not fail the way they are claimed to have failed."
Scott Grainger
P.E., Forensic Fire Protection Engineer
"Structural steel frame high-rise buildings simply do not collapse due to fire."
Ed Munyak
P.E., 25-Year Fire Protection and Mechanical Engineer
"Even one global collapse would have been extraordinary, but to have 3 occur in one day was just beyond comprehension."
David Chandler
B.S Physics, M.S. Mathematics
"People with scientific and engineering backgrounds are looking at the 3 WTC collapses, and what they see is very definite evidence of explosive demolition, as opposed to a "natural" catastrophe."
Jerry Lobdill
B.S.Ch.E., Physicist/Chemical Engineer
"All the eyewitness testimony and video evidence supports only controlled demolition as the cause of destruction for all 3 WTC buildings."
Robert Podolsky
M.S., Physicist/Engineer
"All 3 WTC buildings fell way faster than they would have had there been any resistance from the lower part of the building."
Gery Warner
P.E. Mechanical Engineer
"Molten aluminum is silver. It looks like mercury. The molten metal pouring out of the South Tower is indicative of molten iron, not aluminum.
William Brinnier
25-Year Architect
"Not hit by a plane, with small fires and little damage from debris, there was just no logical explanation for Building 7 to come straight down through what was the path of greatest resistance in under 7 seconds."
Dan Barnum
FAIA, High-Rise Architect
"The tops of the buildings were basically disintegrated."
Frank Cullinan
P.E., Civil Engineer
"It was shocking how fast the buildings collapsed. Tens of thousands of structural connections had to fail not only nearly simultaneously, but in sequential order.
Anthony Szamboti
B.S.M.E., Mechanical Engineer
"The tons of molten metal under just the three WTC buildings that collapsed made me realize that what we're being told about how they collapsed is false."
Casey Pfeiffer
S.E. Structural Engineer
"Even if a floor were to collapse it still wouldn't be able to collapse all of the connections simultaneously at the rate that it did without secondary explosions."
William Rice
P.E., Civil/Structural Engineer
"Watching Building 7 collapse in under 7 seconds, after watching the Twin Towers collapse, I think most anyone would recognize these as controlled demolitions."
Steven Jones
Ph,D., Physicist, Former Brigham Young Univ. Professor
"Molten metal in the basements of all three buildings. What is this molten metal? Direct evidence of the use of thermite."
David Gregg
Ph.D., Chemical Engineer 30 years at Livermore Laboratories
"The only way that's known that a carbonaceous material can cause steel, or iron oxide to turn into a molten metal is in a blast furnace. And that's very different than what we had."
Kevin Ryan
B.S. Chemistry, Former Mgr. Underwriters Laboratories
"Thermite -if it was present at the World Trade Center, and created this molten metal that so many witnesses and photographic evidence shows would also explain potentially the fact that fires could not be put out at Ground Zero."
Jody Gibbs
35-Year Architect
"The Twin Towers fell at a speed which can only occur if the vertical structure has been removed."
Robert Kim Ireland
B.S.Ch.E., Chemical Engineer
"3 buildings collapsed on 9/11 but there were only 2 planes, that means the third building, WTC 7, had to collapse for some other reason."
Jason Cheshire
B.S.Ch.E., Chemical Engineer/Metallurgist
"1400 hot spots at the WTC for over a week indicates that there was something very hot going on below the surface."
Kathy McGrade
B.S., Materials Engineering
"In an office fire, you cannot generate enough heat to melt steel."
Mark Basile
B.S.Ch.E., 25 Years in Materials Analysis
"I've independently seen thermitic activity within 2 separate independent samples of world trade center dust. All of the characteristics of the micro-spheres tell me that thermite was used in melting those steel beams."
Robert Podolsky
M.S., Physicist/Engineer
"All 3 WTC buildings fell way faster than they would have had there been any resistance from the lower part of the building."
Niels Harrit
Ph.D., Chemistry
"A new investigation is needed that includes looking for remaining explosives and
thermitic materials in the WTC dust."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5UyynjxAyw&t=2s
S.E. Structural Engineer
"Structural engineers and other building professionals need to understand that these buildings did not fail the way they are claimed to have failed."
Scott Grainger
P.E., Forensic Fire Protection Engineer
"Structural steel frame high-rise buildings simply do not collapse due to fire."
Ed Munyak
P.E., 25-Year Fire Protection and Mechanical Engineer
"Even one global collapse would have been extraordinary, but to have 3 occur in one day was just beyond comprehension."
David Chandler
B.S Physics, M.S. Mathematics
"People with scientific and engineering backgrounds are looking at the 3 WTC collapses, and what they see is very definite evidence of explosive demolition, as opposed to a "natural" catastrophe."
Jerry Lobdill
B.S.Ch.E., Physicist/Chemical Engineer
"All the eyewitness testimony and video evidence supports only controlled demolition as the cause of destruction for all 3 WTC buildings."
Robert Podolsky
M.S., Physicist/Engineer
"All 3 WTC buildings fell way faster than they would have had there been any resistance from the lower part of the building."
Gery Warner
P.E. Mechanical Engineer
"Molten aluminum is silver. It looks like mercury. The molten metal pouring out of the South Tower is indicative of molten iron, not aluminum.
William Brinnier
25-Year Architect
"Not hit by a plane, with small fires and little damage from debris, there was just no logical explanation for Building 7 to come straight down through what was the path of greatest resistance in under 7 seconds."
Dan Barnum
FAIA, High-Rise Architect
"The tops of the buildings were basically disintegrated."
Frank Cullinan
P.E., Civil Engineer
"It was shocking how fast the buildings collapsed. Tens of thousands of structural connections had to fail not only nearly simultaneously, but in sequential order.
Anthony Szamboti
B.S.M.E., Mechanical Engineer
"The tons of molten metal under just the three WTC buildings that collapsed made me realize that what we're being told about how they collapsed is false."
Casey Pfeiffer
S.E. Structural Engineer
"Even if a floor were to collapse it still wouldn't be able to collapse all of the connections simultaneously at the rate that it did without secondary explosions."
William Rice
P.E., Civil/Structural Engineer
"Watching Building 7 collapse in under 7 seconds, after watching the Twin Towers collapse, I think most anyone would recognize these as controlled demolitions."
Steven Jones
Ph,D., Physicist, Former Brigham Young Univ. Professor
"Molten metal in the basements of all three buildings. What is this molten metal? Direct evidence of the use of thermite."
David Gregg
Ph.D., Chemical Engineer 30 years at Livermore Laboratories
"The only way that's known that a carbonaceous material can cause steel, or iron oxide to turn into a molten metal is in a blast furnace. And that's very different than what we had."
Kevin Ryan
B.S. Chemistry, Former Mgr. Underwriters Laboratories
"Thermite -if it was present at the World Trade Center, and created this molten metal that so many witnesses and photographic evidence shows would also explain potentially the fact that fires could not be put out at Ground Zero."
Jody Gibbs
35-Year Architect
"The Twin Towers fell at a speed which can only occur if the vertical structure has been removed."
Robert Kim Ireland
B.S.Ch.E., Chemical Engineer
"3 buildings collapsed on 9/11 but there were only 2 planes, that means the third building, WTC 7, had to collapse for some other reason."
Jason Cheshire
B.S.Ch.E., Chemical Engineer/Metallurgist
"1400 hot spots at the WTC for over a week indicates that there was something very hot going on below the surface."
Kathy McGrade
B.S., Materials Engineering
"In an office fire, you cannot generate enough heat to melt steel."
Mark Basile
B.S.Ch.E., 25 Years in Materials Analysis
"I've independently seen thermitic activity within 2 separate independent samples of world trade center dust. All of the characteristics of the micro-spheres tell me that thermite was used in melting those steel beams."
Robert Podolsky
M.S., Physicist/Engineer
"All 3 WTC buildings fell way faster than they would have had there been any resistance from the lower part of the building."
Niels Harrit
Ph.D., Chemistry
"A new investigation is needed that includes looking for remaining explosives and
thermitic materials in the WTC dust."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5UyynjxAyw&t=2s
Planes don't make a building literally collapse