Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens : Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

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Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

It wasn't about jedi-doctrine, it was about respecting canon and consistency within the SW universe. Her powers come to her without focus, or emotional calmness. She gets them without earning them. The force essentially throws them at her. Which means the force is now making a decision to give her these powers, or they changed how you develop ability with the force...either way, that's Disney crapping on established lore.

If you find midichlorians ridiculous, how do you defend how she gained her powers? Luke had several years of time to work with the force between films. Unless you take what you see on screen literally. In which case only 2 hours goes by for everyone?

So, you want it both ways. You want it to not be ridiculous, but then because it's "Star Wars", it can be ridiculous to the point of rewriting history? Midichlorians don't undermine the OT. They give the force some logic, some structure. Means the force isn't some Magic dust that apparently you'd rather it be.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

And how did Luke earn his powers in ANH? He didn't do anything to earn them, he just had them and used them to save the day.



"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Again, out of context, this is correct.

How he got his powers? He earned them through genetics, and being told about the force. If Ben hadn't helped him get in touch with the force, how would he have known to? It was through others that he was fortunate enough to learn of his ability. Without Ben, Luke would not have known. In the "hero moment", he calms his mind, lets the force assist his intuition, and he fires at the correct moment. It helped him time the shot, no more.

He didn't mind read anyone, he didn't mind trick anyone, he didn't use telekinesis, he didn't use engage in lightsabre combat.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

He needed Ben at that point because the force and jedi's were unknown at that time. But in Rey's time they aren't. They are known so her knowing about the force is not strange. She knows what it is.

But about Luke firing, him being strong enough in the force that he can make that shot after such little training (and most of it being things like "concentrate Luke") as he had on the millennium falcon is giving him huge powers. He didn't earn them, he didn't do anything other then being born with them and being told "concentrate" and "the force flows through all of us". And yet he makes the shot that saves the day? That isn't any different than Rey figuring her powers out. Both of them have the force, neither of them went through some great training to get powerful. They are just born powerful.

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

She did not know about the force. She did not know what you could do with the force. She had to have Han tell her all those stories were true.

Strong enough in the force to enhance his reactions? Again, Anakin could do this at 8, involuntarily. Why is it a leap for Luke to be able to do this at like 20 after being instructed how to do so, and after we see him protect himself from the practice droid? It's a VERY basic force skill that ENHANCED his ability to shoot the damn target. They show him failing with the droid, and having to practice again to beat a little toy...is that not earning? Through practice? How did Rey earn her skills? Magic?

If Luke was born powerful, how did he not immediately best Vader in ESB? Why wasn't he immediately amazing with a sabre?

Luke practiced with a Master, learned how to enhance his senses just a smidge, and he timed a shot. Then over the next 6-7 years, he practices and enhances his connection and control of the force, allowing him to actually hold his ground against Vader.

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Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What did Luke know about the Force in ANH that Rey didn't know in TFA? BTW, Yoda explains the Force in her Force vision. And we don't know exactly what she learns from Kylo Ren's mind aside from his fear of not being as strong as Darth Vader.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What? Yoda explained the force in her vision? No...just...no...

Rey had zero assisted training from a master. That is absolutely what we see on screen. Luke had Obi-Wan and Yoda, IN PERSON giving guidance. Rey had words, but they were vague and out of context....let the light in? OK...how?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


What? Yoda explained the force in her vision? No...just...no...

Rey had zero assisted training from a master. That is absolutely what we see on screen. Luke had Obi-Wan and Yoda, IN PERSON giving guidance. Rey had words, but they were vague and out of context....let the light in? OK...how?


Rey already knew about the Force before the events of TFA. Han says: "I used to wonder that myself. Thought it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo -- magical power holding together good, evil, the dark side and the light. 'Crazy thing is, it's true. The Force, the Jedi, all of it. It's all true." Rey doesn't need to have the Force explained to her, just assurance that it's real. And yes, Yoda's words about the Force is in her vision.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

She'd heard of it, thought it was legend. Did she know specifics? All we can do is speculate about what she knows. What the film shows us is that she heard that the legends of Luke and the force are true. Hans description is perfect, it's how Disney sees the force...Magical mumbo jumbo. Does that tell Rey what it is? How to commune with it? How to use it to sense, to extend her feelings and control it? Please explain.

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Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Obi Wan sat Luke down in his hut and explained what the Force entailed. He then later instructed Luke on how to channel it.

All Luke did was use these tips to help with one shot. They didn't suddenly give him the power to start doing stuff like mind tricks.

In TFA, Rey not only had no instructions from anyone on how to tap into the force, she didn't even know what the Force was.


You didn't answer my question. What did Luke know about the Force in ANH that Rey didn't know in TFA?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

How to connect to it. He was also shown how to hold a sabre, and rudimentary defense using a sabre. He was described what the force was beyond a sentence from a cgi alien. He also had direct assistance from a Master on how to connect with the force.

How does Rey know how to "let the light in"? What the hell does that vague statement even mean?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


How to connect to it. He was also shown how to hold a sabre, and rudimentary defense using a sabre. He was described what the force was beyond a sentence from a cgi alien. He also had direct assistance from a Master on how to connect with the force.

How does Rey know how to "let the light in"? What the hell does that vague statement even mean?


You still won't answer my question. What does Luke in ANH know about the Force that Rey did not know?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


How to connect to it. He was also shown how to hold a sabre, and rudimentary defense using a sabre. He was described what the force was beyond a sentence from a cgi alien. He also had direct assistance from a Master on how to connect with the force.


It's all about feeling, and trusting instinct. Did Rey hear those words? Was it described to her how she actually connects with the force? ....that's exactly what Luke knew, that she did not.

Beyond that, neither were taught telekinesis, mind tricks, or real sabre skills in their first film.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It's all about feeling, and trusting instinct. Did Rey hear those words? Was it described to her how she actually connects with the force? ....that's exactly what Luke knew, that she did not.


Yes, she was taught to feel the Force around her.

Maz: "The belonging you seek is not behind you. It is ahead. I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light. It's always been there. It will guide you."

She knew about the Jedi and Force before the events of TFA, she had a Force vision, and she got into Kylo Ren's head. Plus, it's possible she taught about the Force before being dumped on Jakku.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

When was she taught? How was this "feeling" described to her. Did she get to ask questions about the force? Did she have someone sensing her connection and guiding her?

Oh...she was told about a sentence worth of vague information?

What did she know about the Jedi?
Why would she be able to get in his head without ever using the force before?
Why is this a believable plot point to you, given everything we've seen in the 6 films and animated series?
When was she trained in the mind trick?
When was she trianed in telekinesis?
When was she trained to use a sabre?(using a staff against unarmed goons doesn't count as training with a sabre...)

Your last point is inconsequential because it's not shown in the film. Even if she was, mind reading is not something that was ever possible to the extent shown, and at the age she was dropped off she wouldn't have had that training.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

When Han describes the Force, Rey didn't look at all confused. Why? Because she knew what he was talking about. She lived in close proximity to the Church of the Force. He didn't have to explain it to her, just assure her that the Force and Jedi weren't just myth. Then she has a Force vision because the Force, through Luke's lightsaber, called to her. In that vision both Yoda and Obi Wan speak. Yoda describes the Force. Afterward, Maz also describes the Force to her, says it has always been there, that it would guide her. Luke didn't know anymore about the Force in ANH than Rey knew in TFA. And there's no reason to believe their discovery of Force powers had to come about the same way.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What did he say exactly? He didn't explain the force, he just said it's true. That doesn't increase her understanding of it just because he says what he says...

When did we learn she lives next to a church of the force!??! This was in the movie??????

The Force doesn't call to people. This is fanfiction relative to SW established canon, or wish fulfillment.

HOW does what Maz say help her to understand what the force is, or how to commune with it? Luke was given direct instruction, and was able to ask questions and get feedback as he interacted with the force. To say the mythos can just be altered because you want to justify this film is a further nail in the coffin of the once consistent SW universe.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What Han said confirmed what Rey knew about the Force and Jedi was true, and if she wasn't convinced then, the vision definitely convinced her.

Did you not see Lor San Tekka and his village that was destroyed? BB8 escaped it and ran into Rey.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lor_San_Tekka

The Force doesn't call to people? Says who? You don't get to say what the Force does or does not do.

Both Luke and Rey were taught to feel the Force, to trust it.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

But what did she know?

No, I don't, but the movies do, and so did the books. TFA is rewriting SW mythos. SO maybe it does now, but it didn't previously.

Rey was not taught anything about the force. She heard a sentence encouraging her to do something vague and unclear. She might have had a curiosity after the sentence was spoken, but nothing was taught.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Rey already knew about the Force and Jedi before the events of TFA, she didn't have to have it all explained to her like Luke did as he knew nothing about it. That's established fact.

Ben affirmed that the Force can control one's actions. Little Ani proved that one can unknowingly use the Force. So why is it such a stretch that the Force can call to someone? Rey had a Force vision, she heard the voices of Obi Wan and Yoda. She was inside Kylo Ren's mind. There's no reason Rey should have to learn about the Force the same way Luke did.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Luke SAW a mind trick. He was in the presence of a master. What could she have known, truly KNOWN about the force that he didn't?

The way you write, I assume you're quite young, I mean no offense. It's not established fact that she knew about the force. What's established is that she'd heard of the myth of the jedi and the force, but what detail she knows beyond that it's magical mumbo jumbo is unknown. THAT IS FACT.

You can unknowingly use the force to enhance intuiting and feeling. Absolutely, we have evidence of that. What you can't do, is read minds directly to get information. You can read emotions, and make educated guesses based on the emotions and where they're directed, but you can't download the force from someone.

Luke isn't the only person in the history of SW to learn the force. Rey has skipped the trials and learnings of literally 1000's, maybe 100's of thousands of force users that came before her and has learned skills that aren't inherent with simple knowledge of the force. So, this isn't just about Rey and Luke. Her progression takes a huge dump on the efforts of all the force users before her. She's essentially Neo. Raw force skill would be faster reflexes, or being highly empathic. If it's untrained, and the user doesn't know how to reach out and feel, they wont try telekinesis. They sure as hell wouldn't attempt a mind trick. When she needed a skill, the plot gave it to her.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Rey heard stories of the Jedi and the Force. There's no reason she wouldn't have known about the Jedi mind trick. And no, it was never established as some sort of advanced Jedi skill. Yoda said there was no difference between Force lifting a few small rocks and lifting Luke's ship, that the difference was only in his head. Yoda claimed Luke failed to lift the ship because of his unbelief, not because of inexperience. He didn't say, "That's okay, it just takes practice."

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What stories?

This is speculation. Pure speculation. Even IF she'd heard of it, she wouldn't succeed on her first try.

It was absolutely established as a more advanced skill. Luke took years to demonstrate it. Yoda said that, to demonstrate a point, to get Luke to recognize he needed to unlearn his perception of reality as he'd learned it without the force. But believing doesn't just magically make you better, practice does.

Doubt, fear, insecurity, these should impede a users ability to use the force. If you watch Rey, she's constantly high-energy, or looking confused that the things she's doing with the force is actually happening. That's not self assurance or confidence, that's doubt. She was not only untrained, she was filled with emotional turmoil, yet, she still completed tasks without practice.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It was absolutely established as a more advanced skill. Luke took years to demonstrate it.


Luke's taking years to demonstrate it was a matter of plot, not difficulty. Where in the movies is it stated that mind tricks are a result of advanced learning? They could be the easiest thing in the Jedi handbook for all we know.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

It's not stated, it's shown. Being able to calm yourself enough to do something like telekinesis is one thing. The most basic force ability would be to sense it, to sense emotions and feeling around you... You're suggesting to exhibit enough control to influence those emotions is a basic skill?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It's not stated, it's shown


Shown where? Where is the specific moment/s in the OT/PT that demonstrates the difficulty and/or training levels/duration required for mind tricks?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Because it's never done by a novice. The fact that it isn't implies it requires more advanced control of ones emotions and in turn, the force. Beyond that, she didn't even know what a mind trick was, much less that she could perform one. She was full of doubt and fear and anger, yet, she's granted control.

Ignoring the EU where skills in the force were also established as needing experience/practice, the presence of her sudden skill in the movie flies in the face of the source material.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Because it's never done by a novice. The fact that it isn't implies it requires more advanced control of ones emotions and in turn, the force.


We've barely even seen any novices, let alone been brought up to speed on what constitutes average novice abilities. Mind tricks in the OT/PT are only used as plot devices, nothing more. There is not a shred of canon regarding their rating on the scale of abilities or what it takes to learn how to do them.


Beyond that, she didn't even know what a mind trick was, much less that she could perform one.


She experiences mind manipulation firsthand via Kylo Ren. Kylo immobilises her with a mind trick, gets into her head with a mind trick, knocks her out with a mind trick, gets into her head again with more mind tricks and so on. Sure, no-one has explicitly said "by the way, this is called a 'mind trick ©1983'" but no-one ever told Anakin that sensing images on the back of a ping-pong paddle was a 'Jedi thing' either.

Rey is strong with the Force ("she's stronger than she knows") and, in resisting Kylo, realises that she too can access this power. It's got nothing to do with having ever heard of the famous Jedi mind trick. She sees (and experiences) Kylo using this particular method to bend people to his will, inadvertently gets a taste of that power herself, and logically surmises that it could be her ticket out of captivity. She tries, fails, tries again, fails, and gets it right the third time by emulating the measured calm that Kylo demonstrated.



Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


We've barely even seen any novices, let alone been brought up to speed on what constitutes average novice abilities. Mind tricks in the OT/PT are only used as plot devices, nothing more. There is not a shred of canon regarding their rating on the scale of abilities or what it takes to learn how to do them.

It's established in SW: Rebels that a novice cannot do a Jedi mind trick. It takes Canaan's apprentice Ezra Bridger until season 3 before he successfully does it despite multiple attempts before that. And yes, SW: Rebels is canon.






She experiences mind manipulation firsthand via Kylo Ren. Kylo immobilises her with a mind trick, gets into her head with a mind trick, knocks her out with a mind trick, gets into her head again with more mind tricks and so on. Sure, no-one has explicitly said "by the way, this is called a 'mind trick ©1983'" but no-one ever told Anakin that sensing images on the back of a ping-pong paddle was a 'Jedi thing' either.

Rey is strong with the Force ("she's stronger than she knows") and, in resisting Kylo, realises that she too can access this power. It's got nothing to do with having ever heard of the famous Jedi mind trick. She sees (and experiences) Kylo using this particular method to bend people to his will, inadvertently gets a taste of that power herself, and logically surmises that it could be her ticket out of captivity.

This is either tied into some future revelation about Rey concerning her past, unknown secrets regarding her connection to the Force/Force development, OR this is bad SW fan-fiction on the part of Abrams akin to Disney magic. Unfortunately, since Abrams is already guilty of bad fan-fiction being behind why R2D2 wakes up and was never previously searched for the rest of the map. And also guilty of bad fan-fiction being the motive behind Rey having a Force power up being the reason why she defeated Kylo... there's plenty reason to be skeptical. That Rey figuring to do a mind trick and succeeding came out of Kylo doing a mind probe on her. Rey likely never heard of these Force abilities. She just up and decides to try it, and is instantly successful on her first or second try! (Likely bad fan-fiction that was not designed to tie into some revelation in the next movie).




She tries, fails, tries again, fails, and gets it right the third time by emulating the measured calm that Kylo demonstrated.

Actually she got it right both the second and third time she tried it.



"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It's established in SW: Rebels that a novice cannot do a Jedi mind trick. It takes Canaan's apprentice Ezra Bridger until season 3 before he successfully does it despite multiple attempts before that. And yes, SW: Rebels is canon.


'Canon' is a complicated word in the Star Wars universe. Primarily it's a legal term to protect Disney's interests. On top of that it's a way for Disney to move forward without being bound to old EU material. In reality, Star Wars canon is highly subjective.

Ultimately true SW canon - or 'first tier' canon - has to be the films themselves. The real question is whether or not TFA is true to (or fits with) the previous movies, not how meticulously it matches some (relatively) obscure spin-off cartoon.

Even if 'Rebels' establishes that 'a' novice finds so-called mind tricks difficult, so what? Maybe Rey's more naturally gifted than this person (a la Anakin in the PT with his big-assed Midichlorians). Even if 'Rebels' has a direct quote that states "novices cannot do mind tricks" it still doesn't rule out Rey's being an exception.

And ultimately, if Disney have indeed made a canon goof, it's 'Rebels' that should have to correct the error (presumably via retcons) by virtue of its second tier canon status. TFA is a sequel to (and a continuing part of) the main saga. 'Rebels' is a side-dish. No-one deferred to 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye' for canon-confirmation when ROTJ came out!


Rey likely never heard of these Force abilities. She just up and decides to try it, and is instantly successful on her first or second try! (Likely bad fan-fiction that was not designed to tie into some revelation in the next movie)


Again, why this assumption that a power can only be accessed by prior knowledge of that power's official name and usage? Rey is subjected to mind manipulation. As a Force-sensitive person she fights against it and, in doing so, harnesses it to some degree. Mind tricks had to have come from somewhere. Do you think a bunch of fully-trained Jedi adepts were standing around the water-cooler and suddenly decided "you know what, now that we're at 'skill level 7' perhaps we should try influencing weak-minded people's thoughts with the Force!"
"Great idea brother, but we'd better trademark the concept before we figure out if it's possible."
"Good thinking sister - we'll call them 'Jedi Mind Tricks (patent pending)' just so no-one else can ever stumble upon this idea and call it something else. Now let's get to work..."

No, 'mind tricks' and/or any other forms of mind manipulation would have been discovered and/or harnessed in a variety of ways by people with varying levels of skill under any number of circumstances. TFA merely shows us one way this might be achieved with a particular character.



Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Again, why this assumption that a power can only be accessed by prior knowledge of that power's official name and usage? Rey is subjected to mind manipulation. As a Force-sensitive person she fights against it and, in doing so, harnesses it to some degree. Mind tricks had to have come from somewhere. Do you think a bunch of fully-trained Jedi adepts were standing around the water-cooler and suddenly decided "you know what, now that we're at 'skill level 7' perhaps we should try influencing weak-minded people's thoughts with the Force!"
"Great idea brother, but we'd better trademark the concept before we figure out if it's possible."
"Good thinking sister - we'll call them 'Jedi Mind Tricks (patent pending)' just so no-one else can ever stumble upon this idea and call it something else. Now let's get to work..."

No, 'mind tricks' and/or any other forms of mind manipulation would have been discovered and/or harnessed in a variety of ways by people with varying levels of skill under any number of circumstances. TFA merely shows us one way this might be achieved with a particular character.


You're right. This new, never before seen force-ability, mind reading and probing deep secrets could have somehow given her access to the entire force knowledge Kylo possesses. And she'd see the rules on how to use the force from a light side user and dark side user. and she'd see the skills she's probably capable of. And then she'd know if she just stops breathing for a minute, and becomes perfectly calm and removes all emotion(very easy to do), she'd succeed.

TFA gives Rey an ability she'd never seen or heard of. She has no idea what it takes to actually control the force, yet she can. She's neither calm nor sure of herself, but she succeeds. TFA shows us another way to interpret what Lucas created with the force. It's not showing us a depiction of what it was as it exists even in the currently airing Rebels show, which is canon.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


TFA gives Rey an ability she'd never seen or heard of. She has no idea what it takes to actually control the force, yet she can.


It doesn't matter that she's never heard of it. She is shown by example how the Force can be used to influence others. Kylo inadvertently shows her how. She then uses this technique on Daniel Craig. Whether or not she is aware of the official Jedi term for using the Force to manipulate others is completely irrelevant.


She's neither calm nor sure of herself, but she succeeds.


She is calm when she succeeds. She tries a couple of times before calming herself. Kylo was calm and measured when he interrogated her. She's merely following his example.


TFA shows us another way to interpret what Lucas created with the force. It's not showing us a depiction of what it was as it exists even in the currently airing Rebels show, which is canon


Every SW film has added something to the nature and potential of the Force. Otherwise all 7 movies would be about farmboy pilots hitting 2-meter targets.

'Rebels' is canon by legal necessity, 2nd tier canon at best (with the films themselves being obvious first tier), and whatever claims it makes regarding Jedi training does not discount the idea of varying levels of Jedi potential. If the Midichlorians can conspire out of the blue to make their own 'Chosen One' when the franchise demands, then someone like Rey can be more potentially gifted than some spin-off cartoon character.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

JessDrew wrote:

Every SW film has added something to the nature and potential of the Force. Otherwise all 7 movies would be about farmboy pilots hitting 2-meter targets.

It's true that, as with so much of the SW mythology, the nature of the Force changes throughout the course of the films, but it still feels relatively consistent across the OT and PT.

ANH establishes the Force as an energy field, that both controls and responds to one who is sensitive to it. We see Kenobi, clearly established as a Jedi, make the Jedi "roar" (or whatever it's called!) when he scares away the sand-people, use the mind trick, sense the deaths of billions (presumably?) when Alderaan explodes, vanish upon being struck down, and communicate with Luke after death. We see Vader use telekinesis to choke an impudent subordinate, and we're told by the same subordinate that the Force gives you clairvoyance (although the remark could be taken as a contemptuous dismissal of the Force rather than an affirmation of its power). A brief amount of training allows a blind-folded Luke to block blasts with his lighstabre, and also helps him enhance his aim to make the shot that explodes the Death Star.

So, basically the Force is ESP. What does the rest of the OT add to what's originally established?

The midichlorians in the PT were a stupid mistake intended to give a pseudo-biological explanation of the Force, but, again, it didn't really change the nature of the Force itself. It's something that, no matter the potential one is born with, can only be developed with discipline and training. It's also the case that such training must be provided by someone already skilled in using the Force.

Having the Force speak directly to someone, and having that same person just being able to use a range of Force powers, isn't consistent with what's gone before, but a breach from it.

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


The midichlorians in the PT were a stupid mistake intended to give a pseudo-biological explanation of the Force, but, again, it didn't really change the nature of the Force itself. It's something that, no matter the potential one is born with, can only be developed with discipline and training. It's also the case that such training must be provided by someone already skilled in using the Force.



The point I'm making is that Anakin's entire arc was a huge left turn from what had been established in the OT - hence it still being a bone of contention amongst fans. The original premise was, as you say, pretty simple. Suddenly TPM introduces this 9 yr-old savant who was conceived by Force-sensitive microbes in order to fulfil a cosmic prophecy. And his abilities were way beyond the OT's rather simple quasi-Zen space-Yoga view of the Force. Qui Gon also alludes to 'the living Force' and 'the will of the Force' which again adds extra dimensions to this whole thing. Anakin's powers far out-strip Luke's 'gifted piloting' skills. Anakin has abilities beyond regular humans, has enough ESP to pass Windu's test, and also has prophetic dreams (the latter not necessarily film 'canon' but certainly alluded to in the script and surrounding literature). All bets are pretty much off at this point!

So what's left to do? We've had a basic Arthurian arc in Luke. We've had cosmic space-messiah in Anakin. Where the hell do you go with the next 'new hope' or 'Chosen One'?

To me Rey and Kylo are two sides of what Anakin should have been. Instead of being space-Christ, Anakin should have been an actual slave, not a suburban mommy's boy. Rey has that slave quality, and is an example of what would happen if a potential Jedi was undiscovered and left to evolve in a harsh and unforgiving environment. Rey is several steps ahead of what Luke was in the first film, but several steps behind in actually having her powers quantified and checked. So she's essentially a loaded Force-cannon, unlike Luke who was a mostly blank canvas.

Kylo meanwhile has the ego and the self-doubt and the political zealotry Anakin should have had as he was training. Anakin, as an ex-slave, should have been driven by very political passions, rather than the 'must get anti-death powers for Padme' thing. So for me Rey and Kylo make up for the lost opportunity of the prequels, giving us a genuinely new look at how the Force can manifest outside of the Jedi orthodoxy. Rey's coming into power outside of formal training is a part of this.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What were Anakins abilities that were beyond the OT???


Why do we need a new chosen one? Just for nostalgia, that's why. They could have done what the EU did and show us the reestablished(new) Jedi Order...why do we have to h ave another chosen one?

I disagree with all the points you make next. They don't show her as a slave, they show her as a healthy, athletic, independent survivalist that can maintain strength and energy on meager rations. Despite spending most of her childhood abandoned on a desert planet, she's socially adjusted to boot. She's an incredibly boring character that is given every advantage and no disadvantage. She's got nowhere to go. Kylo was interesting until the made him inconsistent and stupid in the final scene.

Rey knowing everything is rewriting SW because the writers were too lazy to come up with a truly interesting arc. SW wasn't about superheroes, which is what Rey will become.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


What were Anakins abilities that were beyond the OT???



He was created by Force microbes to fulfil a cosmic prophecy. At age 9 he had piloting abilities beyond all other humans, was psychic, and was apparently the entire lynchpin behind balancing good and evil in the universe.

Luke, at 20, was a pretty good pilot.


Why do we need a new chosen one? Just for nostalgia, that's why. They could have done what the EU did and show us the reestablished(new) Jedi Order...why do we have to h ave another chosen one?



I wasn't saying we need another 'Chosen One'. I was saying that we've had the Arthurian thing (Luke) and we've had the 'Jesus in space' thing (Anakin) and we've also had the excruciating boredom and pomp of a fully established Jedi Order (the PT). Rey is, if nothing else, a new approach.


I disagree with all the points you make next. They don't show her as a slave, they show her as a healthy, athletic, independent survivalist that can maintain strength and energy on meager rations. Despite spending most of her childhood abandoned on a desert planet, she's socially adjusted to boot. She's an incredibly boring character that is given every advantage and no disadvantage. She's got nowhere to go. Kylo was interesting until the made him inconsistent and stupid in the final scene.


Conan the Barbarian emerged from slavery with a Mr Olympia physique and very nice teeth too. I can't imagine the rations were great, and I've yet to see a Mr Olympia winner claim he got there by pushing a wheel around the same circle for 20 years. These are fantasy films. That's why Luke pulls out a grappling hook and makes like Errol Flynn rather than cowering in the Millennium Falcon's hold like a normal person would.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


He was created by Force microbes to fulfil a cosmic prophecy. At age 9 he had piloting abilities beyond all other humans, was psychic, and was apparently the entire lynchpin behind balancing good and evil in the universe.

Luke, at 20, was a pretty good pilot.



He was a good land-pilot. He still needed R2 to do a lot for him in space. Qui-Gon gave him instruction before the psychic test, too. Since we never saw Luke attempt the same thing, we don't know if it's a one-off. It's still, to me, basic. It's being hyper-sensitive. His piloting skill was merely enhanced, but he did need to practice to get to where he was when we met him. This is the difference with Rey - beyond piloting, she doesn't earn any of her skills, she just gets them.


I wasn't saying we need another 'Chosen One'. I was saying that we've had the Arthurian thing (Luke) and we've had the 'Jesus in space' thing (Anakin) and we've also had the excruciating boredom and pomp of a fully established Jedi Order (the PT). Rey is, if nothing else, a new approach.


There's no reason a new Jedi Order/Academy with a developing Galactic Republic and a regrouping of Imperial forces couldn't have made a more compelling, less mcguffin and nostalgia filled film. I don't need space-superwoman in my SW. That's my point. I think it's an uninteresting and inconsistent approach.


Conan the Barbarian emerged from slavery with a Mr Olympia physique and very nice teeth too. I can't imagine the rations were great, and I've yet to see a Mr Olympia winner claim he got there by pushing a wheel around the same circle for 20 years. These are fantasy films. That's why Luke pulls out a grappling hook and makes like Errol Flynn rather than cowering in the Millennium Falcon's hold like a normal person would.


Conan is silly though. He isn't a character in SW. Compare her to someone in SW. The defense here isn't to compare, that's deflection. The defense is simply that you find these to be fantasy films, so true attention to detail should be ignored if the writers deem it so. Luke was itching for adventure...even if he was whiny. Leia was with him, encouraging. Why is what he did more out of character than how Rey is presented? Over a decade as a scavenger, supposedly malnourished, has to perform manual labor for hours to get her malnourishing meals, and yet she isn't skin and bones. She's stronger than men with a weight advantage, she's healthy, she's clean, she's got a full set of perfectly white teeth...Just a LITTLE attention to detail relative to the background their saying she came from would have been nice.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Little Ani earned his skills? He was a nine year old kid racing pods with adults. Qui Gon told him to trust his instincts and all of a sudden he went from never finishing a race to winning one. And what other instruction did he get before he aced the ESP test?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

For someone who thinks Rey is a boring character, you sure like to talk about her a lot.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

It does matter. Why does she suddenly know that she can do it? It's akin to training all of the necessary muscles to perform a manuever, say, a muscle up, but then never being shown how to do one, or what it actually is. Just because you possess the means does not mean you immediately know how to perform the act.

She is not calm, it's very clear that she's still frustrated, or angry, or afraid. After rewatching those scenes, it is not clear that she's following his example at all.

There was nothing "added" to the force, there was simply more than words showing us the actual acts one can perform. Just because you don't see every single skill in one film doesn't mean skills shown in another film weren't possible at the time.

Rebels is canon. There's no tiers. If they accept it as canon, it's canon. As is CWAS. Rey is gifted beyond the child potentially born of the force. It's fan fiction, and it mocks the mythos.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It does matter. Why does she suddenly know that she can do it? It's akin to training all of the necessary muscles to perform a manuever, say, a muscle up, but then never being shown how to do one, or what it actually is. Just because you possess the means does not mean you immediately know how to perform the act.


Because Kylo has demonstrated ad nauseam a means by which someone's will can be circumvented using a mental process. He paralyses her, gets inside her head, reads her thoughts, knocks her out, does it all again. TFA even gives this effect a 'sound' - you can literally hear and 'feel' the change in energy, in mood.

So at the end of all this she realises that she can actually tap this frequency (when she inadvertently turns the tables on Ren). Now she has the foundation (in theory) of a new ability. Since Kylo's trademark is getting inside people's heads and forcing them to do his bidding, it logically follows that if she were to try this technique on someone else it might work for her too. So she tries it on 007. It doesn't matter that she's never heard of 'mind tricks' in the official sense. I could figure out how to kick someone in the head without necessarily having ever heard of Karate or the Can Can.


She is not calm, it's very clear that she's still frustrated, or angry, or afraid. After rewatching those scenes, it is not clear that she's following his example at all.



On her final attempt she calms down, drops her pitch, and of course you 'hear' the energy shift. Kylo was all calmness and soft tones when he first tortured her, so it logically follows that keeping one's cool is paramount to success with this technique.


There was nothing "added" to the force, there was simply more than words showing us the actual acts one can perform. Just because you don't see every single skill in one film doesn't mean skills shown in another film weren't possible at the time.



Midichlorians were a brazen addition. And before you say they don't really change anything let me remind you that the Midichlorians themselves conceived a 'Chosen One' in order to fulfil a cosmic prophecy that did not remotely exist in the OT - let alone all that 'balance to the Force' stuff.

Lucas was inconsistent at the best of times. During story sessions for ROTJ he was insisting that the Force was "like Yoga, anyone can do it" on one hand, but also claiming that it somehow ran strong in the Skywalker lineage on the other. Is 'good Yoga' genetic?

He also suddenly introduced mind reading - but we've beaten that psychic horse to death!


Rebels is canon. There's no tiers. If they accept it as canon, it's canon. As is CWAS. Rey is gifted beyond the child potentially born of the force. It's fan fiction, and it mocks the mythos.



Of course there are tiers. Do you honestly think the squad of story consultants assembled for Episode IX will open plot meetings with "whatever we do, we mustn't contradict the cartoons!"

Besides, like I said, none of that negates the possibility of an exception in Rey's case. Oh, and the mythos was mocked way before Abrams got hold of it - depending on your point of view of course. I presume you have no Jar Jar tattoos?



Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Because Kylo has demonstrated ad nauseam a means by which someone's will can be circumvented using a mental process. He paralyses her, gets inside her head, reads her thoughts, knocks her out, does it all again. TFA even gives this effect a 'sound' - you can literally hear and 'feel' the change in energy, in mood.

So at the end of all this she realises that she can actually tap this frequency (when she inadvertently turns the tables on Ren). Now she has the foundation (in theory) of a new ability. Since Kylo's trademark is getting inside people's heads and forcing them to do his bidding, it logically follows that if she were to try this technique on someone else it might work for her too. So she tries it on 007. It doesn't matter that she's never heard of 'mind tricks' in the official sense. I could figure out how to kick someone in the head without necessarily having ever heard of Karate or the Can Can.



I don't mean to be rude, but this is your spin on it. This is not portrayed in the film at all in this way. It's a fun fan theory, but it's not expressed in the scene. The 'sound', is silly...we didn't need a 'sound' in the past because in the past the skill earning made sense.

Again, you didn't address how ridiculous it all is...she somehow downloaded all of his understanding? Or saw snippets of his skills? This canon-breaking/insulting event is Disney-magic. It's so utterly frustrating that this is the direction of the franchise.


On her final attempt she calms down, drops her pitch, and of course you 'hear' the energy shift. Kylo was all calmness and soft tones when he first tortured her, so it logically follows that keeping one's cool is paramount to success with this technique.



It's so 'forced'. She's still sweating...and when she tells him to drop his blaster her tone changes, her pitch gets higher...she's no longer calm, yet it works. Then again with the telekinesis, she's surprised. Even if you believe she's keeping her cool, it's not established that she'd need to do so to use the skill.


Midichlorians were a brazen addition. And before you say they don't really change anything let me remind you that the Midichlorians themselves conceived a 'Chosen One' in order to fulfil a cosmic prophecy that did not remotely exist in the OT - let alone all that 'balance to the Force' stuff.

Lucas was inconsistent at the best of times. During story sessions for ROTJ he was insisting that the Force was "like Yoga, anyone can do it" on one hand, but also claiming that it somehow ran strong in the Skywalker lineage on the other. Is 'good Yoga' genetic?

He also suddenly introduced mind reading - but we've beaten that psychic horse to death!


Look, if you are allowed fan theories for explaining Rey, I'm allowed to theorize Palpatine or Plageous created Anakin. OR, maybe some odd mixture of genetics in his mother caused a surplus of midichlorians to be present in her uterus? He didn't suddenly introduce mind reading if people use Leia's defense of it as an argument for it...right?


Of course there are tiers. Do you honestly think the squad of story consultants assembled for Episode IX will open plot meetings with "whatever we do, we mustn't contradict the cartoons!"

Besides, like I said, none of that negates the possibility of an exception in Rey's case. Oh, and the mythos was mocked way before Abrams got hold of it - depending on your point of view of course. I presume you have no Jar Jar tattoos?




Canon, is canon. Everyone sites these damn novels for TFA, and that's external to the film, so in the same respect, Rebels and CWAS are canon.

Jar Jar wasn't using the force. Which is the specific qualm here. He's awful, and the CG does NOT hold up, but he was at least sidelined after TPM.

Whatever they don I don't want them contradicting the mythos, or established direction. They've already done that, so Disney has lost me as a fan. I'm revisiting the EU as we speak!

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


I don't mean to be rude, but this is your spin on it. This is not portrayed in the film at all in this way. It's a fun fan theory, but it's not expressed in the scene. The 'sound', is silly...we didn't need a 'sound' in the past because in the past the skill earning made sense.


I can only go with how I 'felt' when the scene played out. I didn't need a 'fan theory', and I'm ruthlessly wary of anything SW-related that requires one (hence my head-canon disposing of the prequels). The scene worked for me way before I envisaged conversations like this one!

I disagree with your position on 'earning' re so-called mind tricks. Mind tricks have only ever been something of a plot device - and a bit of a joke really - in the movies. Jedi waves hand, recipient dumbly obeys...it's kind of funny. Even the bad guy version is strangely hilarious - like the scene where Vader promotes Piett even as Ozzel's dying of asphyxiation in the background!

Kylo's use of mind tricks/manipulation added a whole new level to this previously rather frivolous talent. For the first time in the saga, Jedi mind-manipulation has become sinister. It's given a 'sound', a weight. It's a form of torture where it used to be slapstick. I must admit it never occurred to me that what Obi Wan did in Mos Eisley was quite immoral. It just seemed kinda cool (and necessary) at the time. But is it ethical? Even the arrogant claim about 'weak minds'. Who the hell is this guy? My guess is that it's not a matter of how 'difficult' it is to do, but how appropriate it is - and this is what the Kylo factor introduces for me. The film gives this power a physicality, and a morality. No SW film addresses 'difficulty'.

Since I don't share your canon-position on mind-trick learning/earning I saw the torture scene as an expansion on the concept, not a lazy reduction. Kylo inadvertently teaches Rey how to do this, how to manipulate 'energy' to make others do what you want them to. And she uses it. I don't see a need for positing some kind of 'downloading'. She learns firsthand. Kylo used this technique to immobilise her, sedate her, force secrets from her etc etc. She gets a taste of how he's doing this, throws it back at him, and then tries it on someone else in a bid to get free.


It's so 'forced'. She's still sweating...and when she tells him to drop his blaster her tone changes, her pitch gets higher...she's no longer calm, yet it works. Then again with the telekinesis, she's surprised. Even if you believe she's keeping her cool, it's not established that she'd need to do so to use the skill.



She opens the channel first (by calming herself) - you can 'hear' it. Then she has him. Of course she's still surprised. Have you ever done a Yoga move and surprised yourself? Holy heck, I did it!


Look, if you are allowed fan theories for explaining Rey, I'm allowed to theorize Palpatine or Plageous created Anakin. OR, maybe some odd mixture of genetics in his mother caused a surplus of midichlorians to be present in her uterus? He didn't suddenly introduce mind reading if people use Leia's defense of it as an argument for it...right?



Absolutely! That's the point. Anakin was basically Rey in his day. Legions of fans saw (and continue to see) Anakin as a violation of what SW and the Force was about. Now we're going through the same thing again. It's completely subjective.

Leia's defence against Vader was a convenience. There was no mind-reading in ANH (just the mind-probe droid) and she wasn't a Skywalker. It just so happens to work with the later added notions of her heritage and Vader's sudden ESP boost in ROTJ. I bet Lucas never even considered the events of ANH/Leia when he wrote the later stuff. Continuity was never his strength.

I mentioned Jar Jar to illustrate that the SW mythos has taken a battering since forever. Some fans even think TESB is an insult to the mythos! It really is subjective. Lucas himself would look at all our canon-waffle and shake his head with disbelief.


Whatever they don I don't want them contradicting the mythos, or established direction. They've already done that, so Disney has lost me as a fan. I'm revisiting the EU as we speak!



Do you mean the Zahn stuff? I tried the first one way back in the 90s but couldn't get into it. I'm considering a second attempt though. How does it rate?



Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Since I don't share your canon-position on mind-trick learning/earning I saw the torture scene as an expansion on the concept, not a lazy reduction. Kylo inadvertently teaches Rey how to do this, how to manipulate 'energy' to make others do what you want them to. And she uses it. I don't see a need for positing some kind of 'downloading'. She learns firsthand. Kylo used this technique to immobilise her, sedate her, force secrets from her etc etc. She gets a taste of how he's doing this, throws it back at him, and then tries it on someone else in a bid to get free.


I just don't see it. After everything I've seen on screen, in the 'toons', and in the books, this new short-cut method doesn't 'fit'. I don't see how he used a mind trick on her at all, in those scenes, honestly. He knocks her out, then tries to read her mind. I saw no mind trick. So to me, the only way I can explain it if I accept they're fully-reading minds now(again, something never done to this extent), is that she downloaded his skills in that brief "connection"...It's just soo....Star Trek. I love Trek too, which is maybe why I saw this and it just felt wrong. SW wasn't so hokey with powers. The Force wasn't constantly in your face. It was more the characters...I think the only thing that comes close to two actors grimacing at eachother was when Anakin and Obi-Wan try to force push eachother at the same time...but it's short lived.


She opens the channel first (by calming herself) - you can 'hear' it. Then she has him. Of course she's still surprised. Have you ever done a Yoga move and surprised yourself? Holy heck, I did it!


I sure have, but I think the difference here is what we know of ability with the force...that surprise would have, if she were Luke on Dagobah, caused her to drop those rocks...surprise would break her concentration, not enhance her ability. So when she says to drop the blaster...it was, to me, another joke. The whole scene made me cringe.


Absolutely! That's the point. Anakin was basically Rey in his day. Legions of fans saw (and continue to see) Anakin as a violation of what SW and the Force was about. Now we're going through the same thing again. It's completely subjective.

Leia's defence against Vader was a convenience. There was no mind-reading in ANH (just the mind-probe droid) and she wasn't a Skywalker. It just so happens to work with the later added notions of her heritage and Vader's sudden ESP boost in ROTJ. I bet Lucas never even considered the events of ANH/Leia when he wrote the later stuff. Continuity was never his strength.

I mentioned Jar Jar to illustrate that the SW mythos has taken a battering since forever. Some fans even think TESB is an insult to the mythos! It really is subjective. Lucas himself would look at all our canon-waffle and shake his head with disbelief.



I think the difference is that the novelization of TFA and RO are suggesting the Force is guiding people directly. IF we presume the force created Anakin, that's all it ever directly did. We have no reference or evidence of it guiding him, or telling him to do one thing or another, or throwing visions at him through R2 some other object. His creation might be an insult, but his behavior on screen(relative to the force), still fell within what I'd considered fair game. I should note that I'd read a bunch of EU before seeing the prequels.


Do you mean the Zahn stuff? I tried the first one way back in the 90s but couldn't get into it. I'm considering a second attempt though. How does it rate?


It's OK...I enjoyed it, but the writing style is fairly basic...not that I can criticize, but I'll just say it wasn't the most difficult thing to read, does that make sense?? that said, it was entertaining if you like the source material, and the direction it goes with the cast is consistent and satisfying. I'm reading Kenobi now, tells of Obi-Wans time on Tatooine. Then I'll read the new Jedi Academy and Jedi Order book series. Odd..I do consider myself more of a Trekkie...

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It's OK...I enjoyed it, but the writing style is fairly basic...not that I can criticize, but I'll just say it wasn't the most difficult thing to read, does that make sense?? that said, it was entertaining if you like the source material, and the direction it goes with the cast is consistent and satisfying. I'm reading Kenobi now, tells of Obi-Wans time on Tatooine. Then I'll read the new Jedi Academy and Jedi Order book series. Odd..I do consider myself more of a Trekkie...


I never did the 'Trek' thing, although recently I got around to watching the first couple of movies. I know it's universally loathed but I actually thought 'the Motion Picture' was pretty amazing. Light on action, but big on atmosphere!

I could be wrong but I'm assuming 'Jedi Academy' is the Kevin J Anderson series? I've read his 'Dune EU' (I'm a massive Dune fan) and there's a whole Pandora's Box of canon twisting there that would put SW to shame...

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I like the Motion Picture...I like them all, really...Well, Star Trek V is pretty awful, and Nemesis is a terrible sendoff for the TNG cast...meh.

Yes, you are correct, Kevin J Anderson. I'm planning on reading a lot of the EU, some of the short stories I may skip, some of the romance-centric books as well unless they're critical to the larger arcs that tie everything together. I've always been meaning to get myself into Dune...

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


just don't see it. After everything I've seen on screen, in the 'toons', and in the books, this new short-cut method doesn't 'fit'. I don't see how he used a mind trick on her at all, in those scenes, honestly. He knocks her out, then tries to read her mind. I saw no mind trick. So to me, the only way I can explain it if I accept they're fully-reading minds now(again, something never done to this extent), is that she downloaded his skills in that brief "connection"...It's just soo....Star Trek. I love Trek too, which is maybe why I saw this and it just felt wrong. SW wasn't so hokey with powers. The Force wasn't constantly in your face. It was more the characters...I think the only thing that comes close to two actors grimacing at eachother was when Anakin and Obi-Wan try to force push eachother at the same time...but it's short like weird.

I wouldn't even call it like Star Trek. It's more akin to Disney warrior princess magic (like Brave, Frozen, Moana, etc) than anything else. And that includes the Force.



"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊
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