Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens : Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I would need to take your word on EU.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Vader was a force using opponent and Luke managed to evade his shots in ANH.
Only for a minute or two before Vader locked on and was about to shoot him down.


[quote]And a cannon in the trench.

The trench cannons were too slow to shoot down fighter ships. They said as much in the mission briefing!



And being shot at by enemy fighters. All the while pilots, experienced pilots, are being gunned down.

And Luke was almost shot down several times! Some pilots didn't get help quick enough. Others had too many enemies on their tail all at once. It's part of squadron dogfighting. Sometimes better pilots get shot down. Some pilots get more help than others depending on the strategy of the enemy and how the battle unfolds.

Just like Han Solo when he went through the asteroid field, Rey didn't have the benefit of a helping squadron.



Until only he remains, and of course he makes the near impossible shot, a shot that another pilot failed to deliver to the target and saves the day. That's a Gary Sue.

I guess you missed the part about the strategy where certain pilots were given the green light to take the shot and others served as protection or "shields".

Try watching a real movie like ANH, and being entertained while learning something from it. Instead watching a superficial rehash of it, and getting emotionally caught up in all this Mar-ReySue crap!



"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

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Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Oh great. Another one who think Luke and Rey are comparable.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Well even if Rey is a 'Mary Sue' (a stupid annoying term, but let's roll with it) - so what? We've already had the 'callow farmboy craving adventure' character in Luke Skywalker, as well as the 'chosen one born of a virgin space-Jesus miracle child' Anakin Skywalker. What's wrong with presenting something, y'know', different?

Anyone who honestly believes Luke's character was 'realistic' is kidding themselves. And anyone who buys the idea of Force-heavy microbes conspiring to make space-Jesus on an insignificant planet is really kidding themselves.

TFA, apparently the rehash of the century, dares to present the idea of a character whose Force abilities are shaped by environment (and to a lesser extent a hitherto unrevealed past) rather than formal Jedi doctrine. Suddenly we all have to put cold towels on our foreheads because "she figured out the mind trick without reading the Jedi manual!"

The irony is that she gets her powers in a very practical way. Luke attained full Jedi Knighthood with the equivalent of about 2 weeks' training - mainly standing on his head and lifting rocks! Anakin, well he got his powers from Jedi-bacteria in order to fulfil a prophecy that no-one in the OT had ever heard of.

This is Star Wars. People need to lighten up. Seriously.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Totally agree and I about Luke's training with Yoda, it actually surprised me to find out how little training he had. Because I had always assumed that in the space between ESB and ROTJ that he had finished his training and that he was showing up in Jabba's palace as a full on Jedi. But no, he actually didn't. All the training he got was with Ben on the millenum falcon and that short time with Yoda. That's all. And yet he shows up in Jabba's palace with all these abilities and has even made his own lightsaber. And of course at the end of the movie he beats Vader, someone that had had decades of training.

And Lukes powers and abilities are supposed to be realistic? Especially since Yoda's training seemed to be, as Ben's training was, all about telling Luke to concentrate and some babble about the force flowing through him. There didn't seem to be much practical stuff there.

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Totally agree and I about Luke's training with Yoda, it actually surprised me to find out how little training he had. Because I had always assumed that in the space between ESB and ROTJ that he had finished his training and that he was showing up in Jabba's palace as a full on Jedi. But no, he actually didn't. All the training he got was with Ben on the millenum falcon and that short time with Yoda. That's all. And yet he shows up in Jabba's palace with all these abilities and has even made his own lightsaber. And of course at the end of the movie he beats Vader, someone that had had decades of training.

And Lukes powers and abilities are supposed to be realistic? Especially since Yoda's training seemed to be, as Ben's training was, all about telling Luke to concentrate and some babble about the force flowing through him. There didn't seem to be much practical stuff there.


Even when I saw TESB as a kid (my favourite movie on earth by the way) I wondered where the hell Luke got his fencing skills!

And Luke does NOT behave like a normal person in ANH. He runs around shooting bad guys and rescuing princesses and using grappling hooks to swing across chasms where the rest of us would probably have surrendered and hoped the Imperials would be lenient. Luke's a fantasy character, an ideal. And that's perfectly fine. It's a fantasy movie. That's what we want.

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Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Years of practise and all the things he did with Yoda off-screen on Dagobah that helped him refine his skills.



Years of practise with what? Off-screen with what? Bear in mind that when TESB was written, Yoda was NOT a fighter. So at best Luke might've fenced with remotes (ie ANH) or just sword-danced around his bedroom on Hoth.

This isn't a problem for me. What strikes me as odd is that for the very first time we actually have in Rey a Force-novice with legitimate fighting skills! Yet suddenly we're all "sorry, staff-fighting is just too far removed from lightsaber use to be realistic..." (cue Homer Simpson with monocle)

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Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Tips on lightsaber duelling.



Do you really think 'tips on Lightsaber duelling' is adequate explanation for the choreography in TESB and ROTJ? Do you think the mere possibility of Yoda (again, strictly a guru in TESB circa 1980) saying "thrust you must, parry you will" offscreen during Luke's very short Dagobah tenure is more articulate and realistic fencing backstory than Rey's proficiency in staff-fighting and general survival?

Again, I don't have a problem with Luke or Rey. But I do think a ridiculous standard is applied to her backstory over Luke's much looser one.

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Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Yoda is a great warrior. Of course he taught Luke how to fight as well. The movie focused on the spiritual/emotional side of the force for greater dramatic effect.

A lightsaber is described as "the weapon of a Jedi Knight" and "A Jedi's weapon" in the OT. Luke receives Jedi training in Empire. Luke has been in possession of a saber for years, training with it as one would train with a Samurai sword or whatever. All these things together made him more proficient in using one and duelling.



Yoda wasn't a 'great warrior' in 1980. From Lucas' own mouth he was written to be a teacher/guru only, not a fighter. That was the whole point about Luke's shallow notion of 'a great warrior'.

Okay, that canon has changed since Yoda was digitized in 2002, but that doesn't change the fact that Luke had received barely a smidgen of lightsaber training (if any) when he went off to duel Vader the first time. Then he had NO Jedi training between TESB and ROTJ (beyond 'possibly' duelling remotes and copying old Jedi workout videos - again NOT in the movies) yet somehow reached 'kicking Vader's ass' levels of combat proficiency and Jedi Knighthood.

Again, Rey actually had a background in butt-kicking.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Yoda wasn't a 'great warrior' in 1980


Actually, Luke called him a great warrior in The Empire Strikes Back, that was the green dude's rep around the galaxy. He would've taught Luke some saber skills, no doubt.


but that doesn't change the fact that Luke had received barely a smidgen of lightsaber training (if any) when he went off to duel Vader the first time


Yeah, and Luke got his ass beaten. Royally. But he came back stronger in Jedi because he studied & perfected the techniques that Yoda had already taught him in Empire (including saber skills) over the coming years. I doubt Luke sat around with his thumb up his ass between ESB and ROTJ.


Again, Rey actually had a background in butt-kicking


Haha, no way. At least we saw Luke getting some pointers from jedi's before taking on heavier duties and such. It's better than nothing (ie with Rey).

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Actually, Luke called him a great warrior in The Empire Strikes Back, that was the green dude's rep around the galaxy. He would've taught Luke some saber skills, no doubt.



No, the 'great warrior' quote was to demonstrate just how off-base Luke was in assuming that 'Jedi Master' was synonymous with 'great warrior'. Luke was expecting Yoda to look like some wise old ass-kicking ninja and instead got a 2-ft Zen muppet.

Again, Lucas is quoted in '81 as saying Yoda wasn't a fighter. For what it's worth the ROTJ novelisation also claims that both Palpatine and Vader had never even heard of Yoda. So your claim of Yoda's 'reputation' is merely fanfic on your part, at least with regard to how Yoda was originally conceived in the OT.

This canon was of course changed in 2002 - a point of discord among fans who thought Yoda's newfound fighting status diminished the wonderful 'Zen' approach of TESB - but this doesn't negate the fact that Yoda was originally written to be completely non-aggressive.

With this in mind it is conceivable that Yoda would teach defensive techniques or neutralising moves, but how much of this could he have crammed into the offscreen gaps in Luke's very short training time on Dagobah?


Yeah, and Luke got his ass beaten. Royally. But he came back stronger in Jedi because he studied & perfected the techniques that Yoda had already taught him in Empire (including saber skills) over the coming years. I doubt Luke sat around with his thumb up his ass between ESB and ROTJ.



Again, studied and perfected what techniques? A few pointers (not alluded to in the film) from his week on Dagobah? Who did he spar with in the intervening 6 months (the time between TESB and ROTJ where Luke self-trained to the cusp of full Jedi Knighthood)? Did Yoda leave a collection of sword-training Youtube clips behind?

None of this is a problem. It never was. We're talking about my favourite movies of all time. We're not meant to sit around scratching our heads and trying to add up the possible training minutes against what's shown in the films. Lucas himself would say something vague like "Yoda probably showed Luke some sword-stuff and Luke's natural talent took it from there". The idea of adults debating this crap online would amuse/terrify him. I wouldn't debate it myself if not for the TFA detractors suddenly deciding that Jedi skills have to come under some kind of new training believability criteria - criteria which ironically Rey meets much more than Luke ever did IMO.


Haha, no way. At least we saw Luke getting some pointers from jedi's before taking on heavier duties and such. It's better than nothing (ie with Rey).



No we didn't. We saw Luke training with a remote on the Falcon and...yep, that's it! That's the totality of Luke's lightsaber training as shown and/or alluded to in the movies. From there we have to fill the gaps ourselves - most of those gaps occupied by a Luke with no Jedi teachers on hand.

Rey meanwhile is actively shown to be a fighter. It's in the movie. No-one has to extrapolate "aw, maybe she got pointers between movies" or any such stuff. She is shown to be proficient with a staff and already very comfortable with the role of aggressor/survivor. It's a short step to rudimentary lightsaber skills.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


No we didn't. We saw Luke training with a remote on the Falcon and...yep, that's it! That's the totality of Luke's lightsaber training as shown and/or alluded to in the movies. From there we have to fill the gaps ourselves - most of those gaps occupied by a Luke with no Jedi teachers on hand.

Rey meanwhile is actively shown to be a fighter. It's in the movie. No-one has to extrapolate "aw, maybe she got pointers between movies" or any such stuff. She is shown to be proficient with a staff and already very comfortable with the role of aggressor/survivor. It's a short step to rudimentary lightsaber skills.


First, you're admitting Luke had tutelage, Rey had none, yes? How soon after tutelage did Luke attempt a mind trick? Telekinesis? A sabre battle?

Luke trained with what he knew, as he grew more connected, his force abilities became more effective...what's so hard to grasp?

Rey is shown to be able to defend against thugs. She is not shown directly engaging in combat with trained soldiers. Later she goes on to use a weapon she'd never touched against someone with over a decade of experience handing the same weapon. Had she only rudimentary sabre skills, she'd have been lucky to come away from that fight alive, much less uninjured...yet what was the outcome? Knowing the force doesn't make you decent with a sabre.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


First, you're admitting Luke had tutelage, Rey had none, yes? How soon after tutelage did Luke attempt a mind trick? Telekinesis? A sabre battle?



As I keep pointing out in these debates, 'tutelage' is a very small part of the Jedi experience as depicted in the films. Luke's formal 'tutelage' is the tiniest percentage of his journey to full Jedi Knighthood. A few weeks at best, and that's being generous. How much of that tutelage was necessary to which particular powers, or how much Luke picked up irrespective of/ in absence of his minor tutelage, is absolutely anyone's guess.

There is NO canon on whether 'tutelage' was a factor in Luke's mind trick capacity. There is no evidence - nor is there any possibility - of 'tutelage' prior to his first onscreen telekinesis. He already was using the Force, however naively, prior to having ever met a Jedi Knight. Anakin had vast powers and was actively using the Force, again however naively, prior to ever meeting a Jedi Knight. Anakin was already psychic (see the Windu test) before anyone said so much as 'trust your feelings'. The Force evidently does not wait for you to meet a Jedi Knight before it's powers can manifest or be of circumstantial use.

Rey was strong with the Force. Fact. Rey was a good fighter already. Fact. Rey was undoubtedly already using the Force - however naively - in her survival endeavours, the same way Luke and Anakin used the Force in their pre-Jedi endeavours.

The idea that certain powers can only manifest in the specific ways they manifested in a set of very vague movies is fannish conservatism. Logic dictates that Force powers would manifest in all kinds of ways depending on the innate power of the individual (Jedi potential being genetic) and the circumstances of that individual.


Knowing the force doesn't make you decent with a sabre.


Tell that to the OT.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

With tutelage, did Luke perform a jedi mind trick, telekinesis, or use the force to enhance sabre skills against an advanced force user in ANH?

How do you know what instruction was given to Anakin before those tests? Qui-Gon definitely had some conversations with Anakin, you think the only ones we saw were on screen?

You seem to love the idea of speculation on Rey, but you're against making connections between what we see on screen and what must have transpired off screen between Luke being trained and Luke expressing new skills....

It's true, sensitivity enhances skill when your mind is developed enough to tap it. The thing is, you still need knowledge of an ability to be able to apply your skill to it. Next you need to practice that ability.

Rey might be a sensitive, but she had no training nor exposure to the abilities she performs. She'd never read a mind, she'd never seen or used a mind trick, she'd never seen or used telekinesis. The force doesn't give you these abilities, and tell your mind that you have them...you have to attempt, and train, and feel, and learn. She needs innate skill with a sabre, or she'll get her hands cut off...does the film establish she has any? no. Does she sustain any injuries from fighting? No.

Here's an example. I possessed all the skill and ability to perform a pistol squat. I still had to practice, I had to learn how to center my weight over my foot...For quite a while I still assumed I needed to brace myself, but in reality, I could have performed the motion unassisted quite soon after my first attempt. My point is, just because you are capable of a "power" doesn't mean you'll know how to use it, or how to use it correctly on the first go.

Canon has established, complex use of the force(mind tricks, telekinesis, enhancing sabre skills), takes time. I don't know why you ignore that.

What am I telling to the OT? Luke trained with a sabre between films, and practiced skills with the force. Its implied. Unlike all the mystery boxes in TFA, which are neither implied, or clearly presented.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


With tutelage, did Luke perform a jedi mind trick, telekinesis, or use the force to enhance sabre skills against an advanced force user in ANH?



No, but I'm not sure I understand the gist of your question. Star Wars (ANH) was a relatively simple venture with no requirement to expand or expound upon its concepts. As the first (and possibly only) movie it merely needed to establish the basics - which it did. TFA is episode 7 of an established saga.


How do you know what instruction was given to Anakin before those tests? Qui-Gon definitely had some conversations with Anakin, you think the only ones we saw were on screen?



That would be duplicitous on the part of Qui Gon. The whole implication of that scene is to show how advanced Anakin was in the absence of training, that he was "the Chosen One". If Qui Gon had tutored him en-route to Coruscant, this means he was rigging the vote.

But that's just apologetics. The purpose of that scene was clearly to show how far Anakin had come sans training. That was the whole point of his character, that the Midichlorians had infused him with natural ability.


You seem to love the idea of speculation on Rey, but you're against making connections between what we see on screen and what must have transpired off screen between Luke being trained and Luke expressing new skills....



Quite the contrary - I didn't have to speculate with Rey at all. We are told/shown firsthand that she can fight. We are told/shown that she's a pilot and mechanic. We're told firsthand that she's "strong with the Force, stronger than she knows". We are shown explicitly that she's a survivor. We are shown the process through which Kylo opens her mind to psychic manipulation and inadvertently gives her a crash course. We are shown the rudimentary skill she displays against Kylo in the forest before he reminds her to channel this Force thing that she's been experiencing and hearing about throughout the movie. You may not like the movie's conclusions about Force-proclivity, but the film does lay it all out.

Luke on the other hand gets a brief lesson in the first film, a few weeks (and that's being generous) on Dagobah, and the rest he does entirely on his own. Supposedly. And I've always been more than happy to speculate what may have happened between movies. I had to by necessity.

Anakin has powers and abilities far beyond mortal men because he was conceived by space-microbes who, despite their size, supposedly wanted some prophecy fulfilled and figured a slave on an insignificant rim-world would be the place to start!


It's true, sensitivity enhances skill when your mind is developed enough to tap it. The thing is, you still need knowledge of an ability to be able to apply your skill to it. Next you need to practice that ability.



Not necessarily. No-one told Anakin that he needed space-Jesus powers to be a Podracer. Circumstances merely dictated that he rise to the occasion. Later he's told that it's Jedi stuff, that he has powers. Again, he passed Windu's test without instruction or knowledge or even need. The Force gave him a freebie. Why? It happens apparently.


Rey might be a sensitive, but she had no training nor exposure to the abilities she performs. She'd never read a mind, she'd never seen or used a mind trick, she'd never seen or used telekinesis. The force doesn't give you these abilities, and tell your mind that you have them...you have to attempt, and train, and feel, and learn. She needs innate skill with a sabre, or she'll get her hands cut off...does the film establish she has any? no. Does she sustain any injuries from fighting? No.


In terms of fighting she's had tons of exposure. That is made obvious - that she has learned to survive and fight and defend herself with a weapon. She is already 'strong with the Force', so the obvious implication (if Luke and Anakin are any indication) is that she has been unknowingly tapping into this talent all along to whatever degree. It's a short hop from her established fighting prowess to her clunky lightsaber prowess. Only at the very end, ironically at Kylo's urging, does she stop panicking and tap into the Force wholeheartedly.

The telekinesis would've been pure instinct and desperation. She knows what Kylo is capable of (having been tortured by him and also recently hurled through the air) so she sees him summoning the lightsaber and reaches out to duplicate his feat. Strong with the Force, stronger than she knows. Note she's as surprised as he is.

There is no canon on mind tricks. They're just a story device in the OT (and PT). We are not given any indication that they are difficult or where they fit in a formal Jedi Curriculum. They could be the easiest thing in the Jedi bag of tricks for all we know. Perhaps they're even discouraged as being borderline immoral (circumventing someone's free will is pretty invasive).

TFA gives Jedi mind manipulation a particular focus. It takes the mind-reading powers Vader displayed in ROTJ (which we've discussed) and has Kylo make this his trademark. The film also gives the power a 'sound', a 'feel'. You can 'hear' when the energy shifts as Kylo opens these channels. So now 'mind tricks' have a kind of 'science', a 'weight'.

Kylo inadvertently shows Rey how to access this frequency. Unlike Poe, who breaks like everyone else Kylo's tortured, Rey taps into Kylo's vibe. In her struggle to resist, to survive, she basically gets a free lesson. So with Kylo gone she's left wondering if this skill could be used to escape. She tries a couple of times on Daniel Craig, and fails, and then tries to assume the calm that Kylo exhibited. You 'hear' the shift in energy and it works.

So a series that had no canon regarding mind tricks now has a practical demonstration of how they might be tapped into by a potential Force-user. What do we have to rate it against? Nothing. We've never seen this taught before.


Here's an example. I possessed all the skill and ability to perform a pistol squat. I still had to practice, I had to learn how to center my weight over my foot...For quite a while I still assumed I needed to brace myself, but in reality, I could have performed the motion unassisted quite soon after my first attempt. My point is, just because you are capable of a "power" doesn't mean you'll know how to use it, or how to use it correctly on the first go.



But what if you inadvertently tapped that technique for another purpose? There's a one-legged roll-back spring jump that incorporates the rudiments of a pistol squat. I was doing these before I'd ever heard of a pistol squat! When it came to official pistol squats I suddenly had a profound advantage because I'd already tackled the balancing issues and, to an extent, the strength issues.

Rey's circumstances have clearly given her an edge over the likes of Luke and Anakin, purely by virtue of the fact that they lived relatively coddled lives compared to her.


Canon has established, complex use of the force(mind tricks, telekinesis, enhancing sabre skills), takes time. I don't know why you ignore that.



It really hasn't. These are just your preconceptions based on numbers ie Luke did this in film 3, Anakin did that in film 2 etc etc.

Look at the disparity between trilogies. Anakin's abilities far exceeded Luke's and he was only 9. Why? Uh, Midichlorians of course! Ooookay.

Canon, especially in a mythology as vague and elastic as Star Wars, is subjective. You yourself have proven this by failing to acknowledge that Vader could read minds - even though he clearly read Luke's mind in ROTJ and Lucas himself explicitly stated that "Jedi can read minds".


What am I telling to the OT? Luke trained with a sabre between films, and practiced skills with the force. Its implied. Unlike all the mystery boxes in TFA, which are neither implied, or clearly presented.



Practised with what? Sparred with whom? Received instructions from whence? Sure, 'it's implied' by vague amorphous statements like "but I've learned so much". But that's it. Broad strokes. That's the style and language of Star Wars. Why does the buck suddenly stop with TFA?

But before we continue this dance let me just say this - I actually respect where you're coming from. Your experience as a SW fan has established a sense of 'reality' within the canon that TFA simply doesn't square with. I get it. I've had exactly the same experience with Rogue One. I think Rogue One violates ANH. It just doesn't fit for me. But for some fans RO is simply an enhancer that actually improves ANH. That's blasphemy to me, but I acknowledge that my canon is a subjective one based on my particular interpretation of the lore.

Star Wars for me is about 'feel'. TESB works because it feels right, not because the story is particularly fantastic. The prequels on the other hand have a pretty amazing story, but they don't 'feel' right to me. Thus I can't relax into them without some major mental gymnastics. Again, other fans see them differently.

TFA (with the possible exception of SK Base) felt 'right' to me. I didn't have to flex and squint and bend to make the pieces 'fit' like I had to with the prequels (or even ROTJ to an extent). It just felt like Star Wars. That's really how I gauge these films, much more than the petty (but fun!) minutiae we pursue on these boards.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


No, but I'm not sure I understand the gist of your question. Star Wars (ANH) was a relatively simple venture with no requirement to expand or expound upon its concepts. As the first (and possibly only) movie it merely needed to establish the basics - which it did. TFA is episode 7 of an established saga.


If you don't understand it at this point, I give up explaining it.


I didn't have to speculate with Rey at all. We are told/shown firsthand that she can fight. We are told/shown that she's a pilot and mechanic. We're told firsthand that she's "strong with the Force, stronger than she knows". We are shown explicitly that she's a survivor. We are shown the process through which Kylo opens her mind to psychic manipulation and inadvertently gives her a crash course. We are shown the rudimentary skill she displays against Kylo in the forest before he reminds her to channel this Force thing that she's been experiencing and hearing about throughout the movie. You may not like the movie's conclusions about Force-proclivity, but the film does lay it all out.


She defends herself against unarmed, untrained goons. I never saw her fight a trained soldier once, prior to engaging with Kylo, and there she was using a weapon she'd never handled before.

Even if he reminds her to channel the force, how does she know how to do such a thing?


Not necessarily. No-one told Anakin that he needed space-Jesus powers to be a Podracer. Circumstances merely dictated that he rise to the occasion. Later he's told that it's Jedi stuff, that he has powers. Again, he passed Windu's test without instruction or knowledge or even need. The Force gave him a freebie. Why? It happens apparently.


The force gave him a freebie? Seriously? He had innate sensitivity DUE to his unknown connection to the force. Sensitivity, that's all. It enhanced his reactions. He saw pod racing, tried it out and found he was good at it....


In terms of fighting she's had tons of exposure. That is made obvious - that she has learned to survive and fight and defend herself with a weapon. She is already 'strong with the Force', so the obvious implication (if Luke and Anakin are any indication) is that she has been unknowingly tapping into this talent all along to whatever degree. It's a short hop from her established fighting prowess to her clunky lightsaber prowess. Only at the very end, ironically at Kylo's urging, does she stop panicking and tap into the Force wholeheartedly.

The telekinesis would've been pure instinct and desperation. She knows what Kylo is capable of (having been tortured by him and also recently hurled through the air) so she sees him summoning the lightsaber and reaches out to duplicate his feat. Strong with the Force, stronger than she knows. Note she's as surprised as he is.

There is no canon on mind tricks. They're just a story device in the OT (and PT). We are not given any indication that they are difficult or where they fit in a formal Jedi Curriculum. They could be the easiest thing in the Jedi bag of tricks for all we know. Perhaps they're even discouraged as being borderline immoral (circumventing someone's free will is pretty invasive).

TFA gives Jedi mind manipulation a particular focus. It takes the mind-reading powers Vader displayed in ROTJ (which we've discussed) and has Kylo make this his trademark. The film also gives the power a 'sound', a 'feel'. You can 'hear' when the energy shifts as Kylo opens these channels. So now 'mind tricks' have a kind of 'science', a 'weight'.

Kylo inadvertently shows Rey how to access this frequency. Unlike Poe, who breaks like everyone else Kylo's tortured, Rey taps into Kylo's vibe. She's 'strong with the Force - stronger than she knows'. In her struggle to resist, to survive, she basically gets a free lesson. So with Kylo gone she's left wondering if this skill could be used to escape. She tries a couple of times on Daniel Craig, and fails, and then tries to assume the calm that Kylo exhibited. You 'hear' the shift in energy and it works.

So a series that had no canon regarding mind tricks now has a practical demonstration of how they might be tapped into by a potential Force-user. What do we have to rate it against? Nothing. We've never seen this taught before.


I saw her defend herself against unarmed, untrained goons. I did not see her fight technically, or against someone trained with weapons...It's not a hop, it's a hole, to conceive that she'd have any ability against someone trained with a light sabre. Given what we know of sabre skills, she should have lost a limb. The force doesn't teach you how to use a sword, it merely enhances reaction and speed and strength, but not technical skill. That, takes practice. Something Kylo had and Rey did not.

Why should telekinesis work during desperation for her? The force doesn't respond to desperation... it responds to a clear, focused mind. She looks SURPRISED, when it lands in her hand. How does she know what she can do with the force? If she sees him sticking his hand out, and she'd never seen that before, how would she know that meant he could summon the sabre? She could have just as easily thought he might push it away, since that's the only skill she'd seen! Surprise is not characteristic of successful force use! Calm control is required.

I have no idea what you're even trying to hint at with the mind tricking. The mind reading, Rey's progression, it all takes a big dump on canon and the way the force operated in the SW universe previously.

Shows Rey? How do you know what Rey was shown? She read something about vader, and he broke the connection...so she downloaded the force-power handbook? Why did she know to try a mind trick? It's so utterly laughable. I actually laughed at it when I saw it.

So you think mind tricks were taught through mind downloading?? why did no one EVER do this in any of the PT, which is essentially a force-ability progression series featuring Anakin..? Because it's made up for TFA.


But what if you inadvertently tapped that technique for another purpose? There's a one-legged roll-back spring jump that incorporates the rudiments of a pistol squat. I was doing these before I'd ever heard of a pistol squat! When it came to official pistol squats I suddenly had a profound advantage because I'd already tackled the balancing issues and, to an extent, the strength issues.

Rey's circumstances have clearly given her an edge over the likes of Luke and Anakin, purely by virtue of the fact that they lived relatively coddled lives compared to her.



But Rey has never used Jedi force skills before...that's the point. Even in yoga, some poses influence others, but without direction, it's difficult to just move into them and hold them successfully. She absolutely did not learn these force abilities because she was alone. That makes absolutely zero sense in this context.

She'd never known how to tap the force to do something complex in the force, yet, she knows to try suddenly...The explanation is terrible writing, or it's intentional and they're making the force easier to progress through.


It really hasn't. These are just your preconceptions based on numbers ie Luke did this in film 3, Anakin did that in film 2 etc etc.

Look at the disparity between trilogies. Anakin's abilities far exceeded Luke's and he was only 9. Why? Uh, Midichlorians of course! Ooookay.

Canon, especially in a mythology as vague and elastic as Star Wars, is subjective. You yourself have proven this by failing to acknowledge that Vader could read minds - even though he clearly read Luke's mind in ROTJ and Lucas himself explicitly stated that "Jedi can read minds".


No, not just based on Luke, based on a collective of movies and books. It takes time, and for you to ignore that means you really haven't paid attention. His abilities exceed Lukes? In TPM? He barely does anything! In AOTC years have passed and he's in a friggin academy with a Jedi Knight guiding him directly! I just don't understand why you're intentionally minimizing this, or being ignorant to the differences here.

Vader could not read minds. Canon said so. Again, you'll speculate all these things to forgive the sloppy writing with Rey, but wont actually consider what transpired. Additionally, Vader NEVER said a name! If they could read minds, why didn't anyone do it in the video I linked? During the CWAS, all those interrogations...no one read anyones mind...all they could do was read emotions or influence people to talk.


Practised with what? Sparred with whom? Received instructions from whence? Sure, 'it's implied' by vague amorphous statements like "but I've learned so much". But that's it. Broad strokes. That's the style and language of Star Wars. Why does the buck suddenly stop with TFA?

But before we continue this dance let me just say this - I actually respect where you're coming from. Your experience as a SW fan has established a sense of 'reality' within the canon that TFA simply doesn't square with. I get it. I've had exactly the same experience with Rogue One. I think Rogue One violates ANH. It just doesn't fit for me. But for some fans RO is simply an enhancer that actually improves ANH. That's blasphemy to me, but I acknowledge that my canon is a subjective one based on my particular interpretation of the lore.

Star Wars for me is about 'feel'. TESB works because it feels right, not because the story is particularly fantastic. The prequels on the other hand have a pretty amazing story, but they don't 'feel' right to me. Thus I can't relax into them without some major mental gymnastics. Again, other fans see them differently.

TFA (with the possible exception of SK Base) felt 'right' to me. I didn't have to flex and squint and bend to make the pieces 'fit' like I had to with the prequels (or even ROTJ to an extent). It just felt like Star Wars. That's really how I gauge these films, much more than the petty (but fun!) minutiae we pursue on these boards.


Well, if you believed what you saw on screen, with the simple practice droid, might it also be possible more advanced modes for defense exist? Might there be robots that could be programmed to use a melee weapon against you for training purposes? We know Grevious had them, and even ignoring the PT, SW universe has droids for everything, there's a robot for any need, so why is this impossible? His skill didn't just appear because he willed it. It's utterly different with TFA! There's no progression! It all just happens for Rey because the plot demanded it!

I respect that you respect my perspective. I find TFA more insulting to the SW universe than RO. Probably because I can see JJ's signature ignorance for the source material, and absolute love of all things spectacle at the expense of logic. He ruined the Trek reboot, now it's an action movie-joke. Now he's gone and shown planets exploding from the surface of other planets 100-1000's of light years away in two series!

For me, The OT, PT and most of the EU books I've read have had that feel. But TFA is a huge step change in said 'feel'. The original characters felt off, the plot, the writing, the lack of consistency with the mythos and behavior of things -like the force- are too far from their bases. SW was a space opera, and it was interesting...TFA, to me is like a blend of Harry Potter, bits of a YA novel, with some Star Wars sprinkled in the mix.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


If you don't understand it at this point, I give up explaining it.
I WISH!!! You are propounding a theory that Rey is a Mary Sue, and you haven't considered certain critiques enough to debunk them intelligently. Instead, you display a big deal of arrogance; that you're an expert because you say you're an expert. If this vomited wall of text is your idea of giving up, I'd hate to see what you consider "running off at the mouth."

I saw her defend herself against unarmed, untrained goons. I did not see her fight technically, or against someone trained with weapons.
You are referring to the henchmen of Unkar Plutt who answered his call to get the droid. Can you testify that they are unarmed or untrained? If I were to argue that they planned to sneak up on Rey and then pull out their weapons, but Finn saw them in time to get her out; would you be able to cite anything from the text to prove they were as you described them? I think you want to see them as unarmed and untrained solely because it helps you maintain the Mary Sue narrative.


This picture contains no physical depiction of the Godhead.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

If I called her a Mary Sue, I apologize, I actually prefer not to use the term. I think she's a terrible character, overpowered and underdeveloped.

I again, don't claim she's a Marry Sue. I agree the scene shows she can DEFEND herself, with a staff, against other scavengers. This does not imply, to me, that she could go toe-to-toe with someone experienced in combat using a completely different weapon without any practice.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

JessDrew there is no point arguing with this guy, according to himself his opinion is law.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


JessDrew there is no point arguing with this guy, according to himself his opinion is law.



Well, I guess we all have our own particular conservatism when it comes to Star Wars. Krugbot and I disagree but we have managed to keep things civil.

The only thing I hate with these debates (generally speaking - not referring to my last conversation with Krugbot) is when detractors do the whole "TFA apologists are stupid" routine. This is just pure BS. Every SW fan is an apologist to some degree. Every SW film has ripped into the canon of its predecessor in some way. At each juncture we, as fans, have had to swallow some amount of contradiction or tone changing or 'writing the the fly'. We're all going to find our own unique limits when it comes to what we accept in the saga and what we don't.

I love the different opinions. It's nerdy and fun. But folks who dig their heels in and seek to denigrate fans who simply don't share their opinion (about space movies made for children!) are the reason the internet is something of a cess pit.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

JessDrew wrote:

The only thing I hate with these debates (generally speaking - not referring to my last conversation with Krugbot) is when detractors do the whole "TFA apologists are stupid" routine. This is just pure BS. Every SW fan is an apologist to some degree.

I'm critical of TFA to an extent, and I'm not overly impressed with Rey's character, but I will cheerfully concede that there's much to enjoy in the former; and while the latter does seem to me to be far too over-powered, I do like the scene in which she summons the lightsaber to her, overpowering Kylo Ren to do so. With the snow gently falling and that music playing, the scene really captures a sense of awe and mystery on a par with Yoda's telekinetically raising Luke's X-Wing on Dagobah.

Every SW film has ripped into the canon of its predecessor in some way. At each juncture we, as fans, have had to swallow some amount of contradiction or tone changing or 'writing the the fly'.

There's a lot of truth to that - ardent SW fans are going to have to concede at some point that Lucas didn't have the mythology all present and correct from the outset, and that there are lots of major inconsistencies between the OT and PT, and minor ones between the individual films as well.

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


There's a lot of truth to that - ardent SW fans are going to have to concede at some point that Lucas didn't have the mythology all present and correct from the outset, and that there are lots of major inconsistencies between the OT and PT, and minor ones between the individual films as well.


Occasionally you'll see posts from fans who think it all went downhill with TESB! These are quite rare of course, but they'll point to the change in tone, the shrinking of the Skywalker universe etc etc. It's an interesting idea because it poses some canon questions.

Imagine if TESB had been written solely by Kasdan and Brackett (but was still identical to what came out). Let's say George retired in '78, sold the franchise, and relinquished all further input. The film would've still been huge, but I daresay there would continue to be a vocal fanbase who'd see TESB as a canon violation of the highest order. The tone would be too far removed from the lighthearted simplicity of ANH, the Vader revelation would be seen as an insult to Lucas' carefully considered back story and would also be an affront to the integrity of the Obi Wan character, the pairing of Han and Leia would be a violation of ANH's 'fairytale' principles (plus fans would cite Lucas' leaning towards Luke as Leia's romantic future in the '78 Making Of' special as 'canon'), Vader's running around choking all his officers would be seen as a cheap riff on the much more restrained and sophisticated version in ANH, Vader's character would be considered incongruent with his more servile position in ANH, Luke suddenly levitating objects would be a canon-violation (where the hell did he learn that?), Yoda would be deemed a cheap add-on to compete with the much more dignified Alec Guiness (a muppet for godsakes!) as well as a marketing tool to nab the Henson crowd, and Lando would be pandering to liberals.

Obviously I'm making this up, but it's not hard to imagine! And this is the most popular one (my personal favourite). I haven't even touched on ROTJ. If someone other than Lucas had pulled the 'certain point of view' card or the 'Leia's my sister' card there would've been hell to pay.

Would anyone on God's earth tolerate Midichlorians if they'd been Michael Bay's idea? Not a chance. Even most Lucas fans can't stand them.

Of course, strictly speaking, the canon buck stops with Lucas (who incidentally doesn't consider the unaltered OT to be canon). But as I keep saying, we're all apologists if we made it past 1980. And proud of it.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

JessDrew wrote:

Occasionally you'll see posts from fans who think it all went downhill with TESB!

I never used to understand the criticism of ESB, as I always knew, or thought I knew, the story of the OT - Vader was Luke's dad, and would ultimately be redeemed in ROTJ, the first SW film I saw in the cinema as a wee boy. I understand it now, as TFA resoundingly undoes the victory of ROTJ as much as ESB undoes the triumph of ANH.

These are quite rare of course, but they'll point to the change in tone, the shrinking of the Skywalker universe etc etc. It's an interesting idea because it poses some canon questions...But as I keep saying, we're all apologists if we made it past 1980.

I think it's always difficult that when you come to a story that's been told to appreciated that it began as something quite different.

Vader's role in the SW saga is a perfect example of this. In ANH, he seems to be essentially hired muscle, pretty much subordinate to Tarkin; in ESB, his powers and standing within the Empire are vastly increased, and he turns out to be (or claims to be) Luke's father, although it's ambiguous if he's the man Kenobi fondly remembered in ANH. A friend of mine pointed out that it could have been that case that Anakin (let's continue to call him that) could have been cuckolded by Vader, then killed by him. Would have been a bit dark, for SW though! And, of course, ROTJ pretty much makes Kenobi a liar - "a certain point of view", what cobblers!

It's odd re-reading the Marvel comic adaptation of SW because, prior to the release of ESB, they seem to tell the story that Lucas originally intended - Darth Vader" is his true name, not a title, there's nothing particularly significant to the Skywalker bloodline, there's no family connection between Luke and Vader, Luke's father truly was a great hero betrayed then murdered, etc.

Even post-ESB, there's scepticism over Vader's revelation - is it really true? Or a cruel mind-game?

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Imagine if TESB had been written solely by Kasdan and Brackett (but was still identical to what came out). Let's say George retired in '78, sold the franchise, and relinquished all further input. The film would've still been huge, but I daresay there would continue to be a vocal fanbase who'd see TESB as a canon violation of the highest order. The tone would be too far removed from the lighthearted simplicity of ANH, the Vader revelation would be seen as an insult to Lucas' carefully considered back story and would also be an affront to the integrity of the Obi Wan character, the pairing of Han and Leia would be a violation of ANH's 'fairytale' principles (plus fans would cite Lucas' leaning towards Luke as Leia's romantic future in the '78 Making Of' special as 'canon'), Vader's running around choking all his officers would be seen as a cheap riff on the much more restrained and sophisticated version in ANH, Vader's character would be considered incongruent with his more servile position in ANH, Luke suddenly levitating objects would be a canon-violation (where the hell did he learn that?), Yoda would be deemed a cheap add-on to compete with the much more dignified Alec Guiness (a muppet for godsakes!) as well as a marketing tool to nab the Henson crowd, and Lando would be pandering to liberals.

Obviously I'm making this up, but it's not hard to imagine! And this is the most popular one (my personal favourite). I haven't even touched on ROTJ. If someone other than Lucas had pulled the 'certain point of view' card or the 'Leia's my sister' card there would've been hell to pay.

This is all a bunch of supposition based off of personal taste in storytelling style. None of these examples come off as slaps in the face to previously established lore, "laws" within the SW universe, or previously established standards for suspension of disbelief.




Would anyone on God's earth tolerate Midichlorians if they'd been Michael Bay's idea? Not a chance. Even most Lucas fans can't stand them.

I know plenty of people who had no problem with the midichlorians. In fact, it doesn't contradict the Force of the OT. They are just Force receptors, not the Force itself. Much like a copper wire is a conductor of electricity, but electricity is perfectly capable of existing everywhere outside of it.




"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


This is all a bunch of supposition based off of personal taste in storytelling style. None of these examples come off as slaps in the face to previously established lore, "laws" within the SW universe, or previously established standards for suspension of disbelief.


I was showing how easy it is to cite canon violations when it comes to SW films. Yes, I made it up (as I admitted, although some fans do indeed stop at ANH for these very reasons) but what I was showing was that TESB violates ANH quite significantly.

Luke's parentage as established by Lucas is changed.
Obi Wan's nobility is extremely compromised by this change and he's made out to be a liar rather than a noble mentor.
Lucas' canon plan for Luke and Leia (alluded to in the '78 interview) is ignored and his 'fairy tale' likewise.
New powers are invented out of nowhere.
A new mentor is invented out of nowhere.
Vader's 'choking' thing from ANH becomes a running gag.
The entire 'pulp' tone of the film is changed to something heavy.

If ANH was the only established lore (again assuming that Lucas' name wasn't on TESB at all) this would all be significant violation.

I'm not putting TESB down (it's my fave!) - I'm just showing how much evolution there really is between the movies. This was between the two best ones! Imagine positing the same scenario for ROTJ or, even more dramatically, the prequels. We forgive Lucas for the 'Leia as sister' thing, but imagine how folks would feel if another writer had come up with it!


I know plenty of people who had no problem with the midichlorians. In fact, it doesn't contradict the Force of the OT. They are just Force receptors, not the Force itself. Much like a copper wire is a conductor of electricity, but electricity is perfectly capable of existing everywhere outside of it.



Some of your best friends are Midichlorians, right? Bad joke. Look, even you must acknowledge that Midichlorians are universally loathed - despite some rare exceptions. Again, any tolerance for this concept is most likely among die-hards. There's no way the world at large is a fan of this concept.

But that wasn't my point anyway. You're okay with them right? Would you be okay with them if they'd been an Abrams invention? Or would you be saying that they violate established lore? Are you honestly going to tell me that if Midichlorians had been invented by Michael bay or JJ Abrams, you'd be okay with them?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

RubyHypatia wrote:

Luke saved the galaxy, making that one in a million shot using the Force with only a few minutes of instruction. Days before he hadn't even heard of the Force.

How do you know that Luke received only a few minutes of training from Kenobi? We see a brief scene of Luke receiving instruction, but there's no way to tell how long it's lasted, or how many he's previously received. How long did the trip to Alderaan take - was it really only minutes? Or hours?

Days?

Luke uses the Force to enhance his senses sufficiently to make the shot almost made by another pilot moments before. This is quite distinct from the Force wonders Rey achieves!

Rey had previous knowledge of the Force, Han's assurance that it was real, a Force vision, Maz' instruction, and a mind link to Kylo Ren. She definitely looked like she was downloading some information from him. Her accomplishments were no greater than Luke's in ANH.

Rey didn't have "knowledge" of the Force, she'd barely heard of it.

Han's assurance isn't comparable to Kenobi's mastery.

What "instruction" did Maz provide? What was she qualified to provide?

In TFA, Rey can read people's minds, over-rule people's minds, summon objects to her telekinetically, overcoming another powerful Force user to do so, and win a lightsabre duel.

Where does Luke do this in ANH?

Padme as a queen and senator had pilots to fly for her. She knows how to fly because flying is the main mode of transportation. It's like with us and driving. There's no reason for Rey not to know how to fly.

True, but there's no reason for Rey to fly and repair the Falcon with the consummate skill that she demonstrates.

JessDrew wrote:

Obi Wan's nobility is extremely compromised by this change and he's made out to be a liar rather than a noble mentor.

Slightly OT, but one of the things I liked about the PT is the way that, to some extent, it restored the good and noble Kenobi of ANH - his innate decency, sense of duty, and good humour in the face of adversity.

A new mentor is invented out of nowhere.

Yoda was an expansion of the SW universe, not a contradiction to it. ANH establishes that the Jedi are "all but extinct", so a further survivor, or survivors, isn't too much of a stretch.

Arguably, the bigger inconsistency comes in the PT, in which we learn that Yoda - who Kenobi describes in ESB as the "Jedi Master who taught me" - only did so to the "youngling" Kenobi. Blah!

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Slightly OT, but one of the things I liked about the PT is the way that, to some extent, it restored the good and noble Kenobi of ANH - his innate decency, sense of duty, and good humour in the face of adversity. Yoda was an expansion of the SW universe, not a contradiction to it. ANH establishes that the Jedi are "all but extinct", so a further survivor, or survivors, isn't too much of a stretch.



I was putting these up as thought experiments basically. Of course Lucas was merely expanding his universe - and we're all extremely grateful! I was just positing an alternate dimension where Lucas' name wasn't actually on the subsequent films.

Surely you can see that if ANH was the only existing canon, and Abrams had written TESB, we would have hoards of folks on this board (there's imdb in this parallel dimension) screaming that JJ had diminished the nobility of a key character (Obi Wan) just so he could push his own 'Vader as father' fanfic. Or that Yoda is just a muppet and has no place in the universe that Lucas created.

Trust me, I'm not saying these are valid sentiments! I'm saying that this is what one could easily expect in the hypothetical instance that I have posited.


Arguably, the bigger inconsistency comes in the PT, in which we learn that Yoda - who Kenobi describes in ESB as the "Jedi Master who taught me" - only did so to the "youngling" Kenobi. Blah!



Exactly! And, generalisation notwithstanding, I bet many of the TFA haters on this board make every excuse under the sun for that little inconsistency (among others).

Now do the same 'experiment' again. Imagine if TPM had been written by JJ Abrams. Would these same fans be okay with this story point? Or would they be screaming "Lucas clearly intended Yoda to be Obi Wan's instructor! This 'younglings' crap is typical JJ fanfic just so he can push Liam Neeson down our throats"!

Obviously my 'observation' is subjective and fanciful. But the point is valid. I really don't think TFA deviates from 'canon' any more than ROTJ or TPM or any other SW movie did in its day. So Rey's really powerful. So what? Anakin was space-Jesus! There was no precedent for that kind of character prior to 1999. None whatsoever. Virgin birth? Balance to the Force? Please, let's not pretend that wasn't totally insane! We got through that okay right? I think we can survive Rey's proclivity for Jedi-ness.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

JessDrew wrote:

Surely you can see that if ANH was the only existing canon, and Abrams had written TESB, we would have hoards of folks on this board...screaming that JJ had diminished the nobility of a key character (Obi Wan) just so he could push his own 'Vader as father' fanfic. Or that Yoda is just a muppet and has no place in the universe that Lucas created....Imagine if TPM had been written by JJ Abrams. Would these same fans be okay with this story point? Or would they be screaming "Lucas clearly intended Yoda to be Obi Wan's instructor! This 'younglings' crap is typical JJ fanfic just so he can push Liam Neeson down our throats"!

LOL - yes, fair points all! Yes, I agree that the SW saga as originally conceived is very different from what eventually appeared, but I think there's a distinction between a creator revising or expanding upon their work and a later adaptor deviating from it.

Both Rey and TFA are unsatisfying hybrids. Rey is a bland personality but over-powerful character; TFA retreads the plot of ANH while rewriting the nature of the Force.

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


How do you know that Luke received only a few minutes of training from Kenobi? We see a brief scene of Luke receiving instruction, but there's no way to tell how long it's lasted, or how many he's previously received. How long did the trip to Alderaan take - was it really only minutes? Or hours?

Days?



While it's true that we don't know exactly how much tutelage Luke received, I think based on what we actually saw, it's fair to say that that was more or less it.

When we first see Luke, he is struggling to deflect shots from the remote with the saber. Struggling in the way that he is trying to do it as an exercise with no real instruction. He's testing his reflexes and ability the same way that someone like you or I would.

Then, to show off to Han, Obi Wan blindfolds him, gives him a little encouragement about stretching out with his feelings (not really a physical instruction) and there you are, a kid who hadn't even heard of the force a day ago is deflecting 3 shots fired with his eyes closed.

If all it took was "stretch out with your feelings" to go from cant deflect anything to deflecting three shots blindfolded, I'd say that there wasn't a whole lot of actual tutelage going on before hand.

Also, I may not be remembering it correctly, but when Han comes to sit with them, doesn't he mention that he's only just outrun the imperials? I don't imagine that took days.


Rey didn't have "knowledge" of the Force, she'd barely heard of it.

Han's assurance isn't comparable to Kenobi's mastery.



Actually given how things played out, its not far off.

We saw first hand what Kenobi offered Luke and it wasn't much, not based on what he could have given him, but unfortunately he died the same day he revealed the force to Luke and spent most of that day saving a Princess.


What "instruction" did Maz provide? What was she qualified to provide?


Imagine a martial arts master was to explain to you that when you strike your opponent, you must exhale upon impact. Then imagine a bartender explains to you that he's no martial artist, but he knows about fighting, and you need to breath out when your punches and kicks land.

This is the same instruction. Does it make you a better fighter if you hear it from the master over the bartender? No, it's the same principle. What Obi Wan said to Luke, as instruction was more or less the same as what Maz said to Rey. The Force is about feelings. You will need to practice to master it of course, but you can still use its power before you become a Jedi, even if you'd only heard of The Force this morning.

We don't know exactly what Rey knows of the Jedi or The Force but we know that she has heard of them and thought them legend.

If I were to confirm to you that Superman was real and we could all be like Kryptonians with practice, if you found yourself in a pinch later that same day, you might be thinking of all the different abilities you'd heard about, what might be at your disposal, laser vision, ice breath, flight, x-ray vision etc. Whereas if I took someone who had never heard of Superman and introduced the idea, even as fact, we'd have a lot more ground to cover to bring that person up to speed.


Where does Luke do this in ANH?


It's an adventure story and Luke never needed The Force to overcome his odds. He had expert marksmanship when the plot needed (shot the door panel first time after Kenobi's death from who knows how far away... far away enough for Stormtroopers to miss him standing there like a sitting duck mind you).

The Force is mysterious and manifests in people differently. Luke Skywalker, with little tutelage he received from Yoda in Empire, when he was already too old, became a Jedi Knight and defeated The Dark Lord of The Sith. Leia, with no tutelage, could sense that Luke was her brother, subconsciously, and always had somehow. She was also able to sense that he made it off the Death Star alive.

Sure that's 'sensing' and not using abilities, but where in Star Wars does it really state that there is a big gap between the two? Who's to say that if Leia didn't clear her mind and focus, really believed she could, that she couldn't perform a force pull, or a mind trick? Who's to say that the Force doesn't often respond to a need or necessity, survival instinct in force sensitives? It may be showing us something that hasn't happened before, but its not showing us something that was attempted and failed before either. It's not showing us anything that we've been told is impossible.

In ANH Vader The Dark Lord of The Sith, needed a probe droid to interrogate Leia. Come to RoTJ, suddenly he can invade the thoughts of Luke, a Jedi Knight using The Force. Where was this ability in ANH? It hadn't been thought of yet, and that's fine. Does it fit snuggly, not really but that's the nature of The Force. It's mysterious.

TFA introducing us to a Force Sensitive who is using abilities she may have heard of or seen demonstrated during crisis doesn't contradict the OT, it is merely showing us something that we haven't seen before. Doesn't mean you have to like it mind you.


True, but there's no reason for Rey to fly and repair the Falcon with the consummate skill that she demonstrates.


Once again we have to remember that this is an adventure movie, a blockbuster. I've seen movies where people suddenly become amazing at car chases because it's a fun part of the movie. In Star Wars I suppose a ship is the equivalent.

She crashed about and flies it clumsily to begin with. Once you're in the air, it's hard to say how skilled she really is with it. Even the infamous flip of the Falcon is merely a case of turning the engine off mid dive.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

d_myers wrote:

While it's true that we don't know exactly how much tutelage Luke received, I think based on what we actually saw, it's fair to say that that was more or less it...If all it took was "stretch out with your feelings" to go from cant deflect anything to deflecting three shots blindfolded, I'd say that there wasn't a whole lot of actual tutelage going on before hand.

Yes, Han's remark that he's "only just outrun the Imperials", and Kenobi's comment to Luke that "you've taken your first step into a bigger world", or something like it, strongly suggests that Luke has received only a small amount of training, lasting, at best, a couple of hours.

But the point is that Luke's Force powers in ANH are both explained - he's the son of a Jedi, he's received some training from a Jedi - and rather minimal, pretty much limited to enhancing his senses. Yes, of course, firing the kill shot that explodes the Death Star is a great, heroic moment, but Luke's Force usage is close to an adrenaline rush, allowing him to do something almost achieved by another pilot moments before. Rey's use of the Force - reading and clouding minds, summoning objects to her - is quite distinct from this.

Han's assurance isn't comparable to Kenobi's mastery...Actually given how things played out, its not far off. We saw first hand what Kenobi offered Luke and it wasn't much

Telling someone about something isn't the same as receiving instruction in it. I've read books on military history, but that doesn't make me a soldier.

Kenobi's instruction to Luke is minimal, but, as I've argued above, Luke's Force powers, while leading to an incredible outcome, are pretty minimal too.

Rey's instruction in TFA is non-existent - as far as we're shown, in any event - but her Force powers are extraordinary.

This is the same instruction. Does it make you a better fighter if you hear it from the master over the bartender? No, it's the same principle. What Obi Wan said to Luke, as instruction was more or less the same as what Maz said to Rey.

Again, surely we must draw a distinction between receiving training (however sparse!) and hearing rumours?

Put it another way. I receive some instruction in the martial arts from a credited black belt. My identical twin is told that Karate is real. We have a fight. Who would be reasonably expected to win?

The Force is about feelings.

Is it? Yoda warns Luke in ESB, and Anakin in TPM and ROTS, of the dangers inherent in feeling too much, particularly darker emotions like fear and anger. On the other hand, Kenobi tells Luke to trust his feelings, to "let go".

Another inconsistency on Lucas's part!

It's an adventure story and Luke never needed The Force to overcome his odds. He had expert marksmanship when the plot needed (shot the door panel first time after Kenobi's death from who knows how far away... far away enough for Stormtroopers to miss him standing there like a sitting duck mind you).

LOL - yes, good point! I'd forgotten Luke's shot after Kenobi's death. Actually, that's a good point - is Luke instinctively using the Force to make the shot? Is it foreshadowing his later shot that will destroy the Death Star?

Still, it's not true that Luke "never needed the Force"; it's his use of it that allows him to destroy the Death Star.

TFA introducing us to a Force Sensitive who is using abilities she may have heard of or seen demonstrated during crisis doesn't contradict the OT, it is merely showing us something that we haven't seen before.

Rey's use of the Force contradicts pretty much everything we've ever seen in SW - not just the OT and PT, but the EU too (or the "Legends" universe, as I understand it's now called?). The Force has always been something that needs training to attain, and years to master. OK, sometimes Force sensitives have some degree of aptitude - little Anakin uses the Force instinctively to fly his pod-racer - but it's not the same as the extraordinary, superhuman feats that Rey simply does.

Once again we have to remember that this is an adventure movie, a blockbuster. I've seen movies where people suddenly become amazing at car chases because it's a fun part of the movie. In Star Wars I suppose a ship is the equivalent. She crashed about and flies it clumsily to begin with. Once you're in the air, it's hard to say how skilled she really is with it. Even the infamous flip of the Falcon is merely a case of turning the engine off mid dive.

Yes, one oughtn't to quibble about the piloting of spaceships in SW - they're obviously a common mode of transportation. But, as ever, Rey does things superbly, piloting the Falcon with such skill, and to her own surprise, performing repairs upon it in a way that stun Han Solo. Impeccably well spoken scavenger from an arid planet, master combatant, principled, superb pilot and mechanic, powerful Force user and excellent lighhsabre user - what can't Rey do?

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Yes, Han's remark that he's "only just outrun the Imperials", and Kenobi's comment to Luke that "you've taken your first step into a bigger world", or something like it, strongly suggests that Luke has received only a small amount of training, lasting, at best, a couple of hours.

But the point is that Luke's Force powers in ANH are both explained - he's the son of a Jedi, he's received some training from a Jedi - and rather minimal, pretty much limited to enhancing his senses. Yes, of course, firing the kill shot that explodes the Death Star is a great, heroic moment, but Luke's Force usage is close to an adrenaline rush, allowing him to do something almost achieved by another pilot moments before. Rey's use of the Force - reading and clouding minds, summoning objects to her - is quite distinct from this.



I appreciate where you're coming from but perhaps this comes down to different points of view.

I do not believe that Luke was training hours due to the nature of his jump from failing to deflect anything, to succeeding to deflect three shots in quick succession blindfolded. If the jump was so huge all because of Obi Wan's minimal encouragement, I don't see why it wouldn't have happened hours ago, more or less when he started. It doesn't at all look to me that he 'finally got it' it looks to me that it was near the beginning of a very basic and relaxed exercise.

The destruction of The Death Star is a tricky one, because as you point out, it is a heroic moment, but at the same time, did it take a lot for Luke to achieve it? It depends really. Sure another pilot almost achieved it prior, but that pilot was more than likely an experienced fighter pilot who was also using a targeting computer, which the other experienced fighter pilots had earlier deemed 'impossible, even for a computer', so it is a big deal.

The force is mysterious, and there's nothing in ANH that says Luke may not have been able to also perform a mind trick if he really needed to and the situation called for it. It never became an obstacle for him. But in Empire, he desperately needed to telekinetically summon his lightsaber, though he'd never seen or likely heard of that being a Jedi ability. We didn't see it in ANH (I don't believe).

Luke is one guy, going on one journey. We don't have to use him as a template for what can and can't be done. Even in Empire, despite everything he'd seen thus far, he was still sceptical to the force. "You want the impossible" he tells Yoda. Other Force sensitive's may take to it like a duck to water due to less scepticism. Perhaps Rey is such a person.


Telling someone about something isn't the same as receiving instruction in it. I've read books on military history, but that doesn't make me a soldier.

Kenobi's instruction to Luke is minimal, but, as I've argued above, Luke's Force powers, while leading to an incredible outcome, are pretty minimal too.

Rey's instruction in TFA is non-existent - as far as we're shown, in any event - but her Force powers are extraordinary.


Kenobi's instructions amount to no-more than encouragement, which Rey pretty much heard in different words from Maz.

You've read military books and you're right, that doesn't make you a soldier. But would you tell me that someone who spends a few hours with a senior officer who gives them encouragement should be just as good as you based on that alone?


Again, surely we must draw a distinction between receiving training (however sparse!) and hearing rumours?

Put it another way. I receive some instruction in the martial arts from a credited black belt. My identical twin is told that Karate is real. We have a fight. Who would be reasonably expected to win?


As a martial artist, I can tell you in all honesty, it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference in such a small amount of time, but that's the real world and this is fantasy.

A better example imo, is that you receive some instruction (encouragement is more accurate from what we actually saw) on punches and kicks... bearing in mind, this morning, you'd never even heard of punching and kicking. Your twin, who has heard legends of the likes of Bruce Lee and things that he had accomplished, has just been told that everything he did was all real and possible.

Who would win? Hard to say, but my money would be on your twin, who now has the imagination to attempt all kinds of things he may be aware of and heard of, as opposed to you who now knows that punches and kicks are actually a thing and been told to trust your feelings when you attempt them.


Is it? Yoda warns Luke in ESB, and Anakin in TPM and ROTS, of the dangers inherent in feeling too much, particularly darker emotions like fear and anger. On the other hand, Kenobi tells Luke to trust his feelings, to "let go".

Another inconsistency on Lucas's part!


Agreed. Let me rephrase. The real power of The Force seems to come from within. The training seen in Empire seems more to do with control and avoiding the quick and easy path. But the power, the abilities seem to come from belief, something that will naturally take some longer than others to learn.

I'm not sure if there is a certain muscle that needs to be strengthened with training to perform a mind trick for example. It's never been portrayed that way. The reason Luke fails to lift the X-Wing is because it's different in his mind. Perhaps Rey is able to perform the mind trick and achieve other abilities because she doesn't disbelieve, especially given her circumstances, needing to escape.

Perhaps she is currently taking the quick and easy path...


LOL - yes, good point! I'd forgotten Luke's shot after Kenobi's death. Actually, that's a good point - is Luke instinctively using the Force to make the shot? Is it foreshadowing his later shot that will destroy the Death Star?

Still, it's not true that Luke "never needed the Force"; it's his use of it that allows him to destroy the Death Star.


Thank you. I take back what I said about him never needing the Force as you are correct, but that's sort of my point anyway. He only needed The Force to blow up The Death Star and that's exactly when he used it. It didn't require a mind trick, or a force pull. What he required was perfect marksmanship to hit a target that more experienced fighters failed to do with the use of a targeting computer. And that's exactly what he used the force for.

Were he trapped in a room with a Wampa during ANH, his only chance of survival, force pulling his lightsaber, perhaps he would have attempted it and succeeded. But he never needed to, thus we can't assume that in dire circumstances, he couldn't. The one thing he needed to do, he did, with the use of The Force.


Rey's use of the Force contradicts pretty much everything we've ever seen in SW - not just the OT and PT, but the EU too (or the "Legends" universe, as I understand it's now called?). The Force has always been something that needs training to attain, and years to master. OK, sometimes Force sensitives have some degree of aptitude - little Anakin uses the Force instinctively to fly his pod-racer - but it's not the same as the extraordinary, superhuman feats that Rey simply does.


I disagree on the grounds that The Force has never been concrete and is mysterious in nature. It's something we haven't seen before yes, but it's not been made apparent that a force sensitive can't use The Force without training. Quite the opposite in fact. To master it? Sure. But do we even know what mastering The Force means?

Was Obi Wan Kenobi a Master of The Force when he had his little braid and defeated The Dark Lord who had murdered Qui Gon, A Council Worthy Jedi Master, moments before?

Is one a Jedi Master because that can force pull, mind trick, sense feelings, mind read, duel, shoot lightning, fly etc. I'd imagine most of the academy can do all of those things.

Using martial arts as a vague example, I see many students below my grade that perform far better than I can in every aspect of the art, some even better than my instructors. Are they masters? Apparently not. Some are natural, strong fighters the moment they walk through the door. Some take to it rather quickly. For others it's a slow road.

We've not been shown on film how this works with The Force. We've been shown that people train to master it, yes. But people can learn to do plenty without instruction. It helps, but it's not the only path.

The Force isn't black and white.


Yes, one oughtn't to quibble about the piloting of spaceships in SW - they're obviously a common mode of transportation. But, as ever, Rey does things superbly, piloting the Falcon with such skill, and to her own surprise, performing repairs upon it in a way that stun Han Solo. Impeccably well spoken scavenger from an arid planet, master combatant, principled, superb pilot and mechanic, powerful Force user and excellent lighhsabre user - what can't Rey do?


I watched this again last night and in all honesty, she doesn't pilot the Falcon with any particular skill save for turning the engine off mid dive, which is more ballsy than skilful. She bashed into things more often than I remembered.

She mentions several times to Han about Unkar Plutt moding The Falcon and how, which explains why she knows what's up with it. Stuns Han? If you think back to Empire, it doesn't take that much to stun Han concerning repairs to The Falcon considering he doesn't have a clue how to fix it himself. C3PO stuns him the same way and he's no ship mechanic. Han didn't have a clue how to fix the thing, he failed every time he tried and Lando's boys had to fix it.

Rey knowing what Unkar Plutt had done to it and why it was messing with it over Han, who hasn't had the thing in 30 years maybe, and didn't even know what to do with it back when it was in his possession isn't really that impressive to me.

Impeccably well spoken scavenger... I agree with you there, but again, it's Star Wars. Where do these accents come from at all?

Master combatant? I dunno. She's surely competent with close combat, which is more than most. She's a survivalist carrying a staff and living alone, I suppose she'd have to learn to fight.

She certainly wasn't an expert lightsaber user. She seemed to be struggling the entire fight until the very end when the calm came over her and The Force more than likely 'guided her actions' whilst also 'obeying her commands'. Not unlike Luke deflecting shots fired from the remote at close range without even being able to see the damn things.

In all honesty, my only real issue with Rey (and Po, if I remember rightly) is that they speak droid. Not saying nobody can, Han seemed to be the only one who could understand Wookiee, there's no reason someone can't show up and understand droid, but it just seemed to be something I'd prefer nobody can do.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


The force is mysterious, and there's nothing in ANH that says Luke may not have been able to also perform a mind trick if he really needed to and the situation called for it.


He couldn't, you know, I know it. He couldn't. Ben used telekinesis to confuse stormtroopers. The force is not mysterious. It's an energy field. You either have a connection(midichlorians? or mutation) to it, or you do not. If you evolve your conscious mind enough(defeat your inner self), you can survive as consciousness within the force when your physical body dies. This is all canon. It's retconned, but it fits together. Luke had a few years after ANH to hone his innate force-sensitivity, and could probably feel objects within the living force...it's not a leap to presume in that gap that he'd practiced a bit and meditated. The telekinesis does not feel as out of place in ESB, with Luke, as it does in TFA, with Rey.


Kenobi's instructions amount to no-more than encouragement, which Rey pretty much heard in different words from Maz.


This is minimizing instruction and feedback to simple encouragement. Maz told her to let the light in. How? What is the light? Ben describes the force, then goes on to help Luke connect to it. He answers questions. As movie goers, we know things happen off screen. Or do we think Luke just stood up, grabbed the sabre, and turned on the droid right then? Is it not more sensible that he probably had some basic instruction about how to hold it, then got shot a couple times before we see the seen? He doesn't master this task, he was successful once. Does that mean he'll be successful the next time?


I disagree on the grounds that The Force has never been concrete and is mysterious in nature.


I disagree completely. Even disregarding the EU, the OT and PT flesh out the force pretty well. It's not this superhuman ability device. Control doesn't come easy. The CWAS and Rebels help to affirm the force as it was originally described. TFA is where we fork, and Disney makes it magic. The force is "calling" people directly now, with Rey and the sabre, and Ip Man in RO.


Impeccably well spoken scavenger... I agree with you there, but again, it's Star Wars. Where do these accents come from at all?

Master combatant? I dunno. She's surely competent with close combat, which is more than most. She's a survivalist carrying a staff and living alone, I suppose she'd have to learn to fight.

She certainly wasn't an expert lightsaber user. She seemed to be struggling the entire fight until the very end when the calm came over her and The Force more than likely 'guided her actions' whilst also 'obeying her commands'. Not unlike Luke deflecting shots fired from the remote at close range without even being able to see the damn things.


People fit into their molds, generally even though "it's Star Wars". She was clean, healthy, and athletic. Not malnourished, not starving, not dirty. When did she learn anything if she'd been scavenging just to survive?

She'd have to learn to defend herself, yes, I agree. Doesn't make her competent as a combatant though.

And she definitely should have lost that Sabre after just a few hits from Kylo. The force doesn't give you light sabre and fighting skill, it merely enhances. Luke simply blocked, using the sabre defensively. Rey attacks, and comes out completely unscathed. Watching the scene again, it was more like 60% Kylo on the offensive, 40% Rey on the offensive. Kylo was toying with her, and Rey turned that around instantly and humiliated Kylo. Absolutely ridiculous.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


He couldn't, you know, I know it.


No we don't, because neither the opportunity or the need presented itself.


The force is not mysterious. It's an energy field. You either have a connection(midichlorians? or mutation) to it, or you do not. If you evolve your conscious mind enough(defeat your inner self), you can survive as consciousness within the force when your physical body dies. This is all canon. It's retconned, but it fits together.


An energy field or not, it's still mysterious in how it works, what it grants and how it is written. One movie Darth Vader needed a probe droid to get someone to talk (and failed) another movie, he can invade the mind of a Jedi Knight.


Luke had a few years after ANH to hone his innate force-sensitivity, and could probably feel objects within the living force...it's not a leap to presume in that gap that he'd practiced a bit and meditated. The telekinesis does not feel as out of place in ESB, with Luke, as it does in TFA, with Rey.



I would presume that he did, but we can only speculate. On one hand, we could assume that Luke may have been able to perform the force pull during ANH, should the need have arisen. He was able to deflect shots blindfolded after all with a little encouragement.

On the other hand, we could presume that he'd been meditating, focusing on things he was already aware of like, deflecting blaster fire, improving his reflexes and piloting skills and only ever attempted the force pull for the first time in Empire because he needed to in order to live.

We could also presume it was somewhere in the middle, but its still all speculation. Any of those scenario's work for me in line with what was presented in the OT as does Rey. Just because Luke didn't need to perform these things in dire scenario's doesn't mean he couldn't if need be, or that someone with a more natural connection to the force, or someone less sceptical etc couldn't.


This is minimizing instruction and feedback to simple encouragement. Maz told her to let the light in. How? What is the light? Ben describes the force, then goes on to help Luke connect to it. He answers questions. As movie goers, we know things happen off screen. Or do we think Luke just stood up, grabbed the sabre, and turned on the droid right then? Is it not more sensible that he probably had some basic instruction about how to hold it, then got shot a couple times before we see the seen? He doesn't master this task, he was successful once. Does that mean he'll be successful the next time?


Maz tells her the force moves through and surrounds every living thing. She instructs her to close her eyes and feel it.

In all honesty, what does Obi Wan tell Luke that's significantly more important than that? Its all about feeling the force around you.

As I explained in my previous post, I do think that Luke had more or less just picked up the saber when we first see them.

How to hold it? It's a mechanic hilt with a button. There's only so many ways you really can comfortably hold it. Surely that wont help with his connection to the force anyway.

He doesn't master this task, you say? That's interesting because I agree, but I wonder why you say that. He succeeded didn't he? He deflected the blasts in quick succession without even being able to see them, at close range. We never see him fail to do so again. At what point do we say he's mastered it?


I disagree completely. Even disregarding the EU, the OT and PT flesh out the force pretty well. It's not this superhuman ability device. Control doesn't come easy. The CWAS and Rebels help to affirm the force as it was originally described. TFA is where we fork, and Disney makes it magic. The force is "calling" people directly now, with Rey and the sabre, and Ip Man in RO.


The force is still mysterious in nature to me in the PT and OT.

If the force is so easy to understand, and has been consistent throughout, what exactly is the deal with Luke cutting off ghost-Vader's head and seeing his own face in there?

How is a cave strong with the dark side of the force if there are no dark side users about?

How does an unconscious energy field that people tap into for powers, suddenly decide to knock up a slave on some shthole of a planet to fulfill a prophecy?

Why can Vader probe Jedi Knight Luke's mind but not naïve Leia's?

What exactly are force Ghosts and why can't they 'interfere' for the greater good?

With regards to other stuff, I'm honestly not that interested. I enjoyed a fare amount of EU stuff pre PT, namely The Dark Empire and The Sith War. But once PT came about and suddenly all Sith were named Darth, Jedi students were named Padawans, Jedi all had blue and green lightsabers only, Sith had red only, Jedi all wore Tattooine desert robes and so on, it just wasn't really my flavour anymore.

Star Wars canon doesn't even mean anything anymore. Things that were are not anymore, things that are, may not be some day. Even the original films as they were are no longer canon. Greedo shot first. That's canon. Star Wars canon lost me there.


People fit into their molds, generally even though "it's Star Wars". She was clean, healthy, and athletic. Not malnourished, not starving, not dirty. When did she learn anything if she'd been scavenging just to survive?


I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd really want to see a real dirty, black teethed grubby scavenger as the protagonist in a family film about space battles. Seeing her lifestyle (scavenging, tinkering and selling etc) is all I really need to see. I'm not that interested in them trying to make it look particularly authentic.

She scavenges for a living. She works for Unkar Plutt. It doesn't tell us she's scavenging every minute of every day. I'm sure she meets plenty of different kinds of people where she is. People pass on knowledge.

This is the same movie series where some of our heroes thought the best way to hide two children away from their evil father was to separate them, place one of them with a political leader during time of war, and place the other in the evil father's old home with his step brother, but keep his family name... which the step brother doesn't even have.

I'm not all that worried about how a scavenger learns how to do things in her spare time.


She'd have to learn to defend herself, yes, I agree. Doesn't make her competent as a combatant though.

And she definitely should have lost that Sabre after just a few hits from Kylo. The force doesn't give you light sabre and fighting skill, it merely enhances. Luke simply blocked, using the sabre defensively. Rey attacks, and comes out completely unscathed. Watching the scene again, it was more like 60% Kylo on the offensive, 40% Rey on the offensive. Kylo was toying with her, and Rey turned that around instantly and humiliated Kylo. Absolutely ridiculous.


The force doesn't give you lightsaber skills particularly, but it does partially control your actions, no?

The context is important in battle. You put Batman in an empty room with Superman, who comes out on top? No brainer. Yet Batman has defeated Superman in battle before.

In the case of Rey and Kylo, Rey spends all the time up until she focuses on the back foot. She tries being offensive with lunges, but they are thwarted by Kylo. He is the superior swordsman. You put a perfectly fit Kylo in a room with Rey and have them fight to the death, Kylo comes out on top.

However, this isn't a fight to the death for Kylo. He wants to convert her. He wants to reason with her. When she is able to find clarity and focus, she takes him by surprise and becomes too much for him in his weakened state.

He may still be twirling the saber around and all that, but the wound was bothering him, and he showed us it was. With that much pain, it's possible, even likely, that he can't focus to his best ability. Focus is an important part of using the force is it not?

She didn't do anything particularly magnificent with that saber in all honesty. She beat down an opponent that essentially had a shotgun wound in his gut, who wasn't trying to harm her and thought he had her beat.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


No we don't, because neither the opportunity or the need presented itself.


It did, but Ben used the mind trick, and Luke was in awe. Even after hearing about the force, and knowing he potentially had it, he didn't think to try, but Ben did.


An energy field or not, it's still mysterious in how it works, what it grants and how it is written. One movie Darth Vader needed a probe droid to get someone to talk (and failed) another movie, he can invade the mind of a Jedi Knight.


No, it's pretty clear. You can't read minds, you can read emotions. This is evident in CWAS and in the EU, and throughout the OT/PT. Vader sensed that Luke sensed Leia crying out from Endor, and pieced it together. Note that even Vader couldn't get specifics like an island with trees, or a name out of him? The Force was consistent. The more clear and free of fear you are, the stronger your connection and control. If you defeat your inner self, you get to exist as consciousness in the force when your body dies.


I would presume that he did, but we can only speculate. On one hand, we could assume that Luke may have been able to perform the force pull during ANH, should the need have arisen. He was able to deflect shots blindfolded after all with a little encouragement.

On the other hand, we could presume that he'd been meditating, focusing on things he was already aware of like, deflecting blaster fire, improving his reflexes and piloting skills and only ever attempted the force pull for the first time in Empire because he needed to in order to live.

We could also presume it was somewhere in the middle, but its still all speculation. Any of those scenario's work for me in line with what was presented in the OT as does Rey. Just because Luke didn't need to perform these things in dire scenario's doesn't mean he couldn't if need be, or that someone with a more natural connection to the force, or someone less sceptical etc couldn't.


If he needed to, and he'd been able to, he would have. He showed us he barely had the control to enhance his reflexes. This is clear in the training droid scene, and when he times the shot on the Death Star.

It's like a sixth sense. If he were aware of the sense, at all, he'd start to feel how the living force interacts with the world around him...through manipulation of that force, he can move things...all it would take is practice. It doesn't fit for Rey. She had no practice, she had no calm, and was full of doubt and fear.


The force is still mysterious in nature to me in the PT and OT.

If the force is so easy to understand, and has been consistent throughout, what exactly is the deal with Luke cutting off ghost-Vader's head and seeing his own face in there?

How is a cave strong with the dark side of the force if there are no dark side users about?

How does an unconscious energy field that people tap into for powers, suddenly decide to knock up a slave on some shthole of a planet to fulfill a prophecy?

Why can Vader probe Jedi Knight Luke's mind but not naïve Leia's?

What exactly are force Ghosts and why can't they 'interfere' for the greater good?

With regards to other stuff, I'm honestly not that interested. I enjoyed a fare amount of EU stuff pre PT, namely The Dark Empire and The Sith War. But once PT came about and suddenly all Sith were named Darth, Jedi students were named Padawans, Jedi all had blue and green lightsabers only, Sith had red only, Jedi all wore Tattooine desert robes and so on, it just wasn't really my flavour anymore.

Star Wars canon doesn't even mean anything anymore. Things that were are not anymore, things that are, may not be some day. Even the original films as they were are no longer canon. Greedo shot first. That's canon. Star Wars canon lost me there.


Maybe reading EU books, and just understanding that it's a passive energy field like subspace, is why I find it not to be mysterious.

The cave is where a dark-side user died, and the energy of the force is tainted there. Dagobah is said to be a very pure place. It's explained in the final Yoda arc in CWAS. The retcon makes a lot of sense, to me. There, Luke had a dark side vision, and faced the dark side with fear. Which is why Yoda says he fails.

As for Anakin..Palpatine hints that he created him...but why isn't it possible, that the midichlorians were present in a weird concentration in Shmi's uterus? If, as Qui-Gon states, they are responsible for all life(weird description), I don't see it as the will of the force, but as the will of these symbiotes that Anakin was created.

Vader senses Lukes fear for Leia when she was injured. Luke couldn't contain it when he sensed she'd been injured.

Force-ghosts, are the consciousness of those who have 'ascended'. The CWAS arc suggests you defeat your inner self and you will live on in the force. My interpretation is that by doing so, you've reshaped your conscious mind, and whatever connection it makes with the force is now even stronger? Makes more sense than a magic field that intervenes when it feels like it.


I don't know about you, but I don't think I'd really want to see a real dirty, black teethed grubby scavenger as the protagonist in a family film about space battles. Seeing her lifestyle (scavenging, tinkering and selling etc) is all I really need to see. I'm not that interested in them trying to make it look particularly authentic.

She scavenges for a living. She works for Unkar Plutt. It doesn't tell us she's scavenging every minute of every day. I'm sure she meets plenty of different kinds of people where she is. People pass on knowledge.

This is the same movie series where some of our heroes thought the best way to hide two children away from their evil father was to separate them, place one of them with a political leader during time of war, and place the other in the evil father's old home with his step brother, but keep his family name... which the step brother doesn't even have.

I'm not all that worried about how a scavenger learns how to do things in her spare time.

Fine, but it removes me from suspension of disbelief. Maybe if her situation were more like Anakins I could believe it. When did this become a family film? Anakin murdering kids doesn't scream family film to me. If it's not authentic, how can I believe it? The SW universe was at least somewhat grounded in it's own visual consistency and lore prior to TFA...

Ok, but they're all just scavengers...If you believe she was passed on knowledge, this is absolutely not conveyed through any kind of exposition. Her situation shows her as a lone scavenger, that's barely fed. That's what I have to go on.

The decisions characters make being sensible or not isn't the same as authentic behavior relative to an environment. Leia's adoptive parents weren't immediately known to be part of the rebellion, right? That was secret until Organa's involvement in the Death Star plans? Doesn't seem terrible...one is kept under observation by a Master Jedi, the other is with a powerful figure that can protect her. Yoda had faith in the guy!

Her learning a few things is one thing, being as capable as she is is what is suspect.


The force doesn't give you lightsaber skills particularly, but it does partially control your actions, no?

The context is important in battle. You put Batman in an empty room with Superman, who comes out on top? No brainer. Yet Batman has defeated Superman in battle before.

In the case of Rey and Kylo, Rey spends all the time up until she focuses on the back foot. She tries being offensive with lunges, but they are thwarted by Kylo. He is the superior swordsman. You put a perfectly fit Kylo in a room with Rey and have them fight to the death, Kylo comes out on top.

However, this isn't a fight to the death for Kylo. He wants to convert her. He wants to reason with her. When she is able to find clarity and focus, she takes him by surprise and becomes too much for him in his weakened state.

He may still be twirling the saber around and all that, but the wound was bothering him, and he showed us it was. With that much pain, it's possible, even likely, that he can't focus to his best ability. Focus is an important part of using the force is it not?

She didn't do anything particularly magnificent with that saber in all honesty. She beat down an opponent that essentially had a shotgun wound in his gut, who wasn't trying to harm her and thought he had her beat.


The force enhances your control, innately by heightening reflexes, intuition, feeling. BUT without any practice of a skill, it isn't going to help you much.

I don't understand the Batman reference...Rey had no time to prepare to go up against what should basically BE a Superman to her..

She's capable enough to defend, and that's what's off...she doesn't get injured, doesn't get disarmed. I understand he wants to break her, and convert her, but then because of the plot, he shuts off his skills and abilities with the force, so that Rey can power up. What surprise is there for a guy who can stop a blaster bolt that was coming from behind/his side? He should not only still be MORE capable than she with the sabre, but he should sense the force in her, and intervene...but he does not so that she can have her magic moment. She was full of doubt, and fear, and suddenly, she can just wash away all of that? Does the movie imply she should be capable of this level of emotional control?

He had a wound, yes, but watch the scene...Even after her power up/download, his range of motion is fine. It's the 3 strikes she lands on him that break him down...then she breaks his sabre...why didn't Kylo disarm her? Or do ANYTHING similar? A little singe on the arm? Leg? Get her in pain, losing focus, get her emotional, to touch the dark side? But the plot doesn't want her to fail, or be injured, or suffer a physical hardship, so she gets to utterly defeat someone with more skill in all of the abilities Rey exercises.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It did, but Ben used the mind trick, and Luke was in awe. Even after hearing about the force, and knowing he potentially had it, he didn't think to try, but Ben did.


Firstly, that's not very fair logic. If Luke did it, instead of Obi Wan, would that then mean Ben can't unless we see him display that ability later?

Secondly, Luke had only just heard about the force. He was told it gives a Jedi his power but not given any examples of what that power is.

Rey on the other hand had heard of both Luke Skywalker and the Jedi, thinking them myth until the middle of the film. I would assume that she had heard of several of the Jedi abilities within those same stories. Not to mention that she had first hand experience of mind invasion before she attempted a similar feat herself.


No, it's pretty clear. You can't read minds, you can read emotions. This is evident in CWAS and in the EU, and throughout the OT/PT. Vader sensed that Luke sensed Leia crying out from Endor, and pieced it together. Note that even Vader couldn't get specifics like an island with trees, or a name out of him? The Force was consistent. The more clear and free of fear you are, the stronger your connection and control. If you defeat your inner self, you get to exist as consciousness in the force when your body dies.


I was never interested in CWAS and any EU books after the release of Phantom Menace. It may be canon, but then as I pointed out previously, so is Greedo shooting first... where as the EU books no longer are, so what is Star Wars canon really worth outside of the movies?

Both Luke and Vader say "Your thoughts betray you", before referring to feelings. How do you feel 'sister'? I can think about my sister. I can worry about her and all you would sense is that I'm worried. How can you sense sister from how I feel?

Pointing out that he was unable to come up with a name for Luke's sister is the same problem with him being able to sense that it was a Sister he was concerned for at all. Maybe he did know it was Leia, it wasn't important or needed to put Luke into the rage, which was the goal. Maybe he hadn't probed further enough to get her name just yet before Luke lost his sht.

But he does say, your thoughts betray you and is able to discover that his feelings are relating to someone who he is thinking about.

So I guess they can do both. If its just sensing how he feels, there's no way he'd know those feelings belong to a sister. Sister is a word, not an emotion or feeling.


If he needed to, and he'd been able to, he would have. He showed us he barely had the control to enhance his reflexes. This is clear in the training droid scene, and when he times the shot on the Death Star.


Exactly. He never needed to. Everything he did need to do, he did, using the force.

He barely had control of his reflexes because he failed twice? He succeeded in spectacular fashion, deflecting blasts, blind folded. That's not just reflexes, that's some sort of psychic ability. He could almost 'see' the remote.

He took one shot at the Death Star and nailed it in one. It was his only shot before the rebellion was completely destroyed, so of course it tense... but he still kept his cool enough to pull it off did he not?


If he were aware of the sense, at all, he'd start to feel how the living force interacts with the world around him...through manipulation of that force, he can move things...all it would take is practice. It doesn't fit for Rey. She had no practice, she had no calm, and was full of doubt and fear.


He was only aware of the force in ANH, and by the end of the day, with whatever little practice he had with a lightsaber, he was able to use it to perform a shot that experienced fighter pilots deemed impossible even with the aid of a targeting computer.

And then, even years later while he'd been practicing, improving, getting a one on one session with a great master he is still sceptical about the limits of The Force. He doubts its abilities despite seeing them and using them first hand.

Not everybody is like that, and that holds Luke back.

When Rey finally succeeded in the mind trick and first turned the tide on Kylo, she was in fact calm. She's in awe when she force pulls the saber, but we didn't see her when she actually performed it, but given the nature of how the film goes out of its way to show us that he calm is what helps her succeed the other two feats, I think its a safe bet she was calm then.

She's not full of doubt. She was afraid when she ran away, and shortly after that she was captured with ease.

When Kylo interrogates her he says that he can sense she wants to kill him. That doesn't sound like fear.

And even so, fear doesn't prevent use of the force. It fuels the dark side, like other negative emotions do. Obi Wan felt anger and grief when Qui Gon died and it didn't hinder his abilities.

Doubt in the force would, but I don't believe Rey had any doubt in the force. Quite the contrary.


Maybe reading EU books, and just understanding that it's a passive energy field like subspace, is why I find it not to be mysterious.


Are those EU books even canon anymore?

And even if they are, does it matter? Star Wars canon seems to be such a mess in general that it doesn't even seem definitive... naturally due to things that were canon no longer being canon.

I would never make the claim that Rey's abilities don't contradict cartoons, games, books, comics etc because I've barely read any of them. Other than KoTOR and TFU games, I haven't even touched any EU stuff since TPM, and I wont.

I say that Rey doesn't contradict the OT (and even The PT, but I couldn't care less about whether she does or not) because with those movies alone with no EU, there's nothing that tells us a character like Rey couldn't exist. Luke, a sceptic even up to halfway through the second movie was using the force when needed to overcome obstacles that he otherwise couldn't have done. It just so happens that Rey is doing the same, under vastly different circumstances that require fancier looking solutions.

Again, outside of the movies, we don't know exactly how difficult a force technique the mind trick is. We've only seen people perform it with ease (with the exception of those who cannot be mindtricked at all), except for Rey who failed twice.


The cave is where a dark-side user died, and the energy of the force is tainted there.


This was not in the movie. Surely dark side users have died just about everywhere over the years. Seems strange that their death can taint the energy field permanently, especially with live light side users present.

Is this even canon anymore?

Did Lucas have this in mind when Empire was released?

How long after Empire's release was this confirmed and by who?

This is why I only go by what's in the movies, because everything else is loose and could be scrapped or contradicted by what the filmmakers choose to do later.


As for Anakin..Palpatine hints that he created him...but why isn't it possible, that the midichlorians were present in a weird concentration in Shmi's uterus? If, as Qui-Gon states, they are responsible for all life(weird description), I don't see it as the will of the force, but as the will of these symbiotes that Anakin was created.



Because the entire point of Anakin is that he is to fulfill a prophecy, which he eventually does. That's magic, not science.

If Anakin is the result of the energy field unconsciously doing something, then why is he an isolated incident? Even if Palpatine made him, why make him on Tattooine to randomly be found by two Jedi who ended up there out of desperation? Why not force knock up some... I dunno... hooker that he can easily remove and then raise force baby as his own?


Vader senses Lukes fear for Leia when she was injured. Luke couldn't contain it when he sensed she'd been injured.



Sure, but as mentioned above, he would sense worry, panic, emotions. Not 'sister' a relative. A word.


Force-ghosts, are the consciousness of those who have 'ascended'. The CWAS arc suggests you defeat your inner self and you will live on in the force. My interpretation is that by doing so, you've reshaped your conscious mind, and whatever connection it makes with the force is now even stronger? Makes more sense than a magic field that intervenes when it feels like it.


Force ghosts have been a thing since Star Wars was released in 77. I don't believe I had to wait until 2003 to watch a cartoon spin-off to accept it all up until that point and I don't need one now. The cartoon can explain what a force ghost is all it wants, but that wasn't how it was envisioned or presented at the time, so it's irrelevant to the films.

And this is where Star Wars canon seems worthless outside of the films. It's all expendable and more often than not wont be part of what was originally conceived.

What if someone at Disney, or Lucas himself decided to make a cartoon show that tells the story of how Anakin was captured during the clone wars, and that Darth Vader is his clone, and the real Anakin has been safe and sound in a cryo chamber all this time?

Would that mean that Luke confronted Vader's clone back when I first saw it in Jedi? I guess, until someone important decides it isn't canon anymore. Would I accept it? Well, no, because it's not present in any of the films and I'm not required to watch that cartoon show.


Fine, but it removes me from suspension of disbelief.


That's fair enough, everybody has different limits of what they're willing to accept.


When did this become a family film? Anakin murdering kids doesn't scream family film to me.


Star Wars has always been a family film series, hence the legions of toys and merchandise aimed at children. Anakin killing children off screen doesn't change that at all and its one scene (well, reference, because its off screen) in a currently 14+ hour long saga filled with heroes, knights with laser swords, bad guys in black suits with capes, princesses, droids making beepy noises, space ships, laser guns, funny looking creatures, special powers and Jar Jar Binks.


The SW universe was at least somewhat grounded in it's own visual consistency and lore prior to TFA...



I strongly disagree. I think that TFA is visually closer to the OT by a fair margin than the prequels ever were. In fact that's one thing that's often thrown in the face of its fans, saying that just because it's nostalgic in feel doesn't make it good.

With regards to it being grounded throughout, again I disagree mainly as the prequels took Star Wars from a mixed group of characters joining the fight, to a story about a chosen one and prophecy.


Ok, but they're all just scavengers...If you believe she was passed on knowledge, this is absolutely not conveyed through any kind of exposition.


Why does it have to be? She's a scavenger, Luke was a farmer. How is it that a farmer was able to go and learn how to be a pilot to fighter pilot level standards? He didn't spend every day on the farm of course, he had hobbies. I don't assume that Rey scavenges all day every day. She's been there for years, I'm sure that she's found hobbies and ways to entertain herself. I don't need exposition to believe she doesn't just scavenge all day.

If they are working on ships, more than likely to sell, I'm sure they get a lot of buyers from all over and have all kinds of different people passing through. The films only a year old anyway. I imagine there'll be a story in a cartoon or comic at some point explaining what Rey did in her spare time. I mean force ghosts were around in 77 and got a detailed explanation in what, 2003? So by 2032 they might have covered it and made it canon.


The decisions characters make being sensible or not isn't the same as authentic behavior relative to an environment. Leia's adoptive parents weren't immediately known to be part of the rebellion, right? That was secret until Organa's involvement in the Death Star plans? Doesn't seem terrible...one is kept under observation by a Master Jedi, the other is with a powerful figure that can protect her. Yoda had faith in the guy!



The lines 'Darth Vader, only you could be so bold' and 'I recognised your fail stench when I was brought on board' gives me the impression that Leia has come across Vader and Tarkin before. Making this kid a Princess isn't the best way to keep her hidden really is it?

And Vader only found out about Luke because the pilot who destroyed the death star was found out to be named Skywalker. If his name were Lars, he may not have bothered. Who's stupid idea was it to give Luke Anakin's last name?

Of course the real answer is that Lucas was winging it. But that's why being strict with Star Wars doesn't really work and TFA is not the odd one out.


Her learning a few things is one thing, being as capable as she is is what is suspect.


It can be suspect all it wants, but it doesn't contradict the OT. She's simply very powerful and a fast learner, or more importantly, a survivalist. The techniques she performs are in response to a need to win and survive. She's not chilling and moving objects around for the sake of it. She is desperate to escape, and like real life, adrenaline can have us performing otherwise seemingly impossible feats, he body may be tapping into the energy field. Maybe she's space Jesus reincarnated. Maybe Luke is playing a part in it. Maybe ANH Luke would have been capable of these things were he not a sceptic and were it needed.

But there is nothing in the OT that says this is impossible or that no other force sensitive has been this gifted etc. We only saw one man's journey, Luke's and we were not told of the force's limits at either beginning or end.


The force enhances your control, innately by heightening reflexes, intuition, feeling. BUT without any practice of a skill, it isn't going to help you much.

I don't understand the Batman reference...Rey had no time to prepare to go up against what should basically BE a Superman to her..



Because preparation, the use of Kryptonite and the fact that Superman doesn't want to harm Batman are the context of their battle. It's a different context to Rey's battle but the point is that who wins on paper isn't always how things play out.

Some people are far natural at things than others. I study martial arts for example and I see some people walk through the door who are simply amazing right off the bat. They may not know the details of the technique, the understanding of it or the term for it, but they perform it brilliantly just the same. Other have been practicing for years and struggle to grasp certain aspects. Everyone is different and there are not set rules on how everyone progresses.


She's capable enough to defend, and that's what's off...she doesn't get injured, doesn't get disarmed. I understand he wants to break her, and convert her, but then because of the plot, he shuts off his skills and abilities with the force, so that Rey can power up. What surprise is there for a guy who can stop a blaster bolt that was coming from behind/his side? He should not only still be MORE capable than she with the sabre, but he should sense the force in her, and intervene...but he does not so that she can have her magic moment. She was full of doubt, and fear, and suddenly, she can just wash away all of that? Does the movie imply she should be capable of this level of emotional control?



That has been an ongoing thing with Star Wars. Whenever lightsaber battles come into play, all the other techniques vanish for the majority of it.

When Luke refused Vader, what happened to Vader's telekinesis? Why didn't he simply levitate Luke and not allow him to escape? Where is the force choke ANY time a Sith is getting down to business? Or Jedi for that matter as I recall Luke using it in RoTJ. Just another example of the force being fairly inconsistent itself.

I believe that Kylo's focus is off. He has killed his Father, hoping that will stop his pull to the light, and I don't believe it has. On top of that he's in pain, which surely makes it difficult to focus as well. Focus is a big part of using the force. He can twirl the blade around as pretty as he likes, hell, even I can do that, but if his connection to the force is compromised then he's not in great shape.


He had a wound, yes, but watch the scene...Even after her power up/download, his range of motion is fine. It's the 3 strikes she lands on him that break him down...then she breaks his sabre...why didn't Kylo disarm her? Or do ANYTHING similar? A little singe on the arm? Leg? Get her in pain, losing focus, get her emotional, to touch the dark side? But the plot doesn't want her to fail, or be injured, or suffer a physical hardship, so she gets to utterly defeat someone with more skill in all of the abilities Rey exercises.


A lot of it is in slow motion, It doesn't go on for that long. His range of motion is fine, but he's got a sever injury that must make it difficult to focus, as mentioned above.

Of the two, it is Kylo who is full of self doubt, trained or not.

A big problem here, again comes down to a certain point of view. Kylo fails as the big bad of this movie because he is defeated by an amateur. I get that complaint given that this is the first of a trilogy. But I don't see Kylo as the big bad of this movie. I see him as just another character. Someone who is trying to be the big bad, and failing. That's part of his story. He isn't the big obstacle Rey needs to train to overcome, he is just another character going through his own arc.

Now he will be trained further as will she, and I for one am intrigued to see what will happen the next time they meet, if indeed that is the direction it will go.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Firstly, that's not very fair logic. If Luke did it, instead of Obi Wan, would that then mean Ben can't unless we see him display that ability later?

Secondly, Luke had only just heard about the force. He was told it gives a Jedi his power but not given any examples of what that power is.

Rey on the other hand had heard of both Luke Skywalker and the Jedi, thinking them myth until the middle of the film. I would assume that she had heard of several of the Jedi abilities within those same stories. Not to mention that she had first hand experience of mind invasion before she attempted a similar feat herself.


It's totally fair. I f we are going to make assumptions about Rey to explain her abilities, why is it unfair to make similar assumptions of Luke?

Rey had only just learned the force is real. You're projecting your own opinion if you believe she heard specifics about what the force allows a user to do. Mind invasion is also a violation of canon. It's just silly and ridiculous.


I was never interested in CWAS and any EU books after the release of Phantom Menace. It may be canon, but then as I pointed out previously, so is Greedo shooting first... where as the EU books no longer are, so what is Star Wars canon really worth outside of the movies?

Both Luke and Vader say "Your thoughts betray you", before referring to feelings. How do you feel 'sister'? I can think about my sister. I can worry about her and all you would sense is that I'm worried. How can you sense sister from how I feel?

Pointing out that he was unable to come up with a name for Luke's sister is the same problem with him being able to sense that it was a Sister he was concerned for at all. Maybe he did know it was Leia, it wasn't important or needed to put Luke into the rage, which was the goal. Maybe he hadn't probed further enough to get her name just yet before Luke lost his sht.

But he does say, your thoughts betray you and is able to discover that his feelings are relating to someone who he is thinking about.

So I guess they can do both. If its just sensing how he feels, there's no way he'd know those feelings belong to a sister. Sister is a word, not an emotion or feeling.




What does Greedo shooting first have to do with the force? The OT novelization describes the scene and it's specific, Vader senses Luke crying out for his sister as she's injured. Luke's thoughts betrayed him. He was fearful for her. Vader knows Padme was only pregnant once, so then he realizes it has to be his twin sister.

He didn't probe, that's the point, he sensed. Emotions for a loved one could have a specific signature vs emotions for an object or a friend, or a dog. Additionally, no one ever in the OT/PT describes thoughts as specific as Kylo/Rey. The few times people sense things, it's vague, and it's about emotions. You can ignore the CWAS all you want, but they agree, thematically, with PT/OT in terms of the force, progression of skill with the force, and abilities.


Exactly. He never needed to. Everything he did need to do, he did, using the force.

He barely had control of his reflexes because he failed twice? He succeeded in spectacular fashion, deflecting blasts, blind folded. That's not just reflexes, that's some sort of psychic ability. He could almost 'see' the remote.

He took one shot at the Death Star and nailed it in one. It was his only shot before the rebellion was completely destroyed, so of course it tense... but he still kept his cool enough to pull it off did he not?


Don't prescribed words like "spectacular fashion" to Lukes practicing with a droid. That's force-reflexes, that we have no idea how long he'd been practicing WITH a Master Jedi before we cut in. It's UTTERLY different than the progression we see with Rey.

The shot is much more in-line with the skills he'd already established for himself on Tatooine. It was simply shooting...He calmed down enough to sense his enhanced intuition to time the shot...but it's a shot similar to one he'd taken before. And he was able to once Han saved his life from Vader.


He was only aware of the force in ANH, and by the end of the day, with whatever little practice he had with a lightsaber, he was able to use it to perform a shot that experienced fighter pilots deemed impossible even with the aid of a targeting computer.

And then, even years later while he'd been practicing, improving, getting a one on one session with a great master he is still sceptical about the limits of The Force. He doubts its abilities despite seeing them and using them first hand.

Not everybody is like that, and that holds Luke back.

When Rey finally succeeded in the mind trick and first turned the tide on Kylo, she was in fact calm. She's in awe when she force pulls the saber, but we didn't see her when she actually performed it, but given the nature of how the film goes out of its way to show us that he calm is what helps her succeed the other two feats, I think its a safe bet she was calm then.

She's not full of doubt. She was afraid when she ran away, and shortly after that she was captured with ease.

When Kylo interrogates her he says that he can sense she wants to kill him. That doesn't sound like fear.

And even so, fear doesn't prevent use of the force. It fuels the dark side, like other negative emotions do. Obi Wan felt anger and grief when Qui Gon died and it didn't hinder his abilities.

Doubt in the force would, but I don't believe Rey had any doubt in the force. Quite the contrary.


They didn't deem the shot impossible...they were attempting it. He wasn't first in line to take the shot, remember?

Luke had lived a good portion of his life understanding the limits of the physical world...it's a bit hard to let go of those rules and truly remove fear, doubt and believe that he can do those things. Especially when Yoda probably expects more of him. He's still that bratty farmboy, remember?

I didn't see her calm. So we'll have to disagree. The scene where she catches the lightsabre almost looks like she wasn't expecting it. So that's just poorly done all together. The fact that she looked surprised makes things all the more ridiculous and inconsistent with how control of the force is established to work in the SW universe.

She was captured by a force-user...what does that have to do with her doubt? Kylo shows us his prowess with the force...which makes his lack of ability in the final scenes even more confusing.

Sensing she wants to kill him sounds like anger...sure doesn't sound like a content, calm mind.

Obi-Wan was also much further along than Rey...a decade more training? Experience? His control of the force at that moment in time should have absolutely dwarfed Rey's, given that she'd only just learned the force is real. She did have doubt, but then the writers whisk it away with a poker-face so that she can power up.

I get that people want to see something different, but to crap on the mythos/lore/canon is just lazy. There are so many directions they could have gone with this!!


Are those EU books even canon anymore?

And even if they are, does it matter? Star Wars canon seems to be such a mess in general that it doesn't even seem definitive... naturally due to things that were canon no longer being canon.

I would never make the claim that Rey's abilities don't contradict cartoons, games, books, comics etc because I've barely read any of them. Other than KoTOR and TFU games, I haven't even touched any EU stuff since TPM, and I wont.

I say that Rey doesn't contradict the OT (and even The PT, but I couldn't care less about whether she does or not) because with those movies alone with no EU, there's nothing that tells us a character like Rey couldn't exist. Luke, a sceptic even up to halfway through the second movie was using the force when needed to overcome obstacles that he otherwise couldn't have done. It just so happens that Rey is doing the same, under vastly different circumstances that require fancier looking solutions.

Again, outside of the movies, we don't know exactly how difficult a force technique the mind trick is. We've only seen people perform it with ease (with the exception of those who cannot be mindtricked at all), except for Rey who failed twice.


No, they are not. The point is that they were canonically consistent, if not in specific words like 'sith' and 'padawan', but with the nature and use of the force.

Rey absolutely contradicts the OT/PT by disregarding that there is a learning curve. It isn't just granted to you because you close your eyes.

The difference with Luke is that he had time to practice and gain experience. Rey did not.

Rey's situation doesn't mean she should get fancier force-abilities quicker. She'd never seen or heard of a mind-trick, and she succeeds influencing a mind on her first attempt at using the power. Why would she even think it could actually work after trying the first time? There's no reason for her to think she should even try again! It's so terrible!


Star Wars has always been a family film series, hence the legions of toys and merchandise aimed at children. Anakin killing children off screen doesn't change that at all and its one scene (well, reference, because its off screen) in a currently 14+ hour long saga filled with heroes, knights with laser swords, bad guys in black suits with capes, princesses, droids making beepy noises, space ships, laser guns, funny looking creatures, special powers and Jar Jar Binks.



The toys and merchandise were not Lucas's intentions...there's been interviews recently where he states as much. Sure, it got a little more PG with the PT, but there are adult themes. Young children in our home wont sit still through the films even though they're full of gorgeous visuals. I don't expect it to have themes designed for children specifically, so I don't consider it a family film...


Force ghosts have been a thing since Star Wars was released in 77. I don't believe I had to wait until 2003 to watch a cartoon spin-off to accept it all up until that point and I don't need one now. The cartoon can explain what a force ghost is all it wants, but that wasn't how it was envisioned or presented at the time, so it's irrelevant to the films.

And this is where Star Wars canon seems worthless outside of the films. It's all expendable and more often than not wont be part of what was originally conceived.

What if someone at Disney, or Lucas himself decided to make a cartoon show that tells the story of how Anakin was captured during the clone wars, and that Darth Vader is his clone, and the real Anakin has been safe and sound in a cryo chamber all this time?

Would that mean that Luke confronted Vader's clone back when I first saw it in Jedi? I guess, until someone important decides it isn't canon anymore. Would I accept it? Well, no, because it's not present in any of the films and I'm not required to watch that cartoon show.


Even without Lucas's explanation in CWAS, a force ghost made sense to me in the OT...a master force-user can have an individual consciousness within the force when they're body dies...why is that mysterious and magical? It means they've achieved a level of connection with the force. EU books had to consult Lucasfilm, so there's definitely some oversight, and intentional direction going on with the expanded canon prior to Disney going a more ridiculous route.

Well, the difference now, is that the original creator doesn't have a say. So if it violates the previous catalog of canon/lore/mythos that badly, why accept it? For me, TFA has already violated too much, and the direction of the series is essentially ruined. It doesn't fit.


I strongly disagree. I think that TFA is visually closer to the OT by a fair margin than the prequels ever were. In fact that's one thing that's often thrown in the face of its fans, saying that just because it's nostalgic in feel doesn't make it good.

With regards to it being grounded throughout, again I disagree mainly as the prequels took Star Wars from a mixed group of characters joining the fight, to a story about a chosen one and prophecy.



It was visually consistent initially, on Jakku, but then it falls apart, for me. It is pretty grounded. The theme of the Jedi believing in a religion through the force explains their presumption of prophecy. It's their interpretation in the film, but it doesn't mean it's truth.


Why does it have to be? She's a scavenger, Luke was a farmer. How is it that a farmer was able to go and learn how to be a pilot to fighter pilot level standards? He didn't spend every day on the farm of course, he had hobbies. I don't assume that Rey scavenges all day every day. She's been there for years, I'm sure that she's found hobbies and ways to entertain herself. I don't need exposition to believe she doesn't just scavenge all day.

If they are working on ships, more than likely to sell, I'm sure they get a lot of buyers from all over and have all kinds of different people passing through. The films only a year old anyway. I imagine there'll be a story in a cartoon or comic at some point explaining what Rey did in her spare time. I mean force ghosts were around in 77 and got a detailed explanation in what, 2003? So by 2032 they might have covered it and made it canon.



Luke was a late teen, living on a farm, that actually supported a family. Are you suggesting someone living on a farm on our Earth, could not simultaneously take up amateur piloting, or, more accessible, stock-car driving? His environment and innate force-skill probably accelerated his piloting skill growth.

If doesn't scavenge, she doesn't eat, so I find it hard to believe she'd survive at all if she WASN'T out looking for loot most of the day. The film expresses her need to scavenge or she'll starve to death. Why would she waste time on hobbies or other skills if not to use them to continue surviving? So it's REALLY confusing that she doesn't!

Force ghosts being explained have nothing to do with Rey's backstory in TFA having little consistency. They're only similar in the sense that they need a little retconning to make sense, but one is a visual accessory, and the other is supposed to describe the main protagonists motivations/development.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


It's totally fair. I f we are going to make assumptions about Rey to explain her abilities, why is it unfair to make similar assumptions of Luke?


Assuming that Luke can't do it is fair, but that's not what you're saying. You're saying that if he could, he would have instead of Kenobi. Why? Wouldn't that just mean that Kenobi can't by the same logic?

Luke didn't need to try it, Rey did.


Rey had only just learned the force is real. You're projecting your own opinion if you believe she heard specifics about what the force allows a user to do. Mind invasion is also a violation of canon. It's just silly and ridiculous.


Yes it's my opinion and you can't debunk the possibility. She was aware of Luke Skywalker, The Jedi and the force. She thought them myth. I've heard stories about Jesus. I've also heard about the miracles he performed. It'd be quite strange if Rey had heard about Luke, the force and the Jedi, but nothing actually about them and what makes them special.

Luke on the other hand certainly hadn't even heard of the force before ANH (probably due to living with Owen who wants him to have nothing to do with his Father), so what would he have heard previously?

And how does mind invasion violate canon? It was done in RoTJ. And even if it wasn't, why does it violate canon? I've never seen it mentioned that it's not a possible ability.



What does Greedo shooting first have to do with the force? The OT novelization describes the scene and it's specific, Vader senses Luke crying out for his sister as she's injured. Luke's thoughts betrayed him. He was fearful for her. Vader knows Padme was only pregnant once, so then he realizes it has to be his twin sister.


Greedo shooting first has to do with Star Wars canon and how fragile it is. The original Star Wars 1977 isn't even canon anymore due to the special edition, so my interest in strict Star Wars canon is non-existent.

If some book somewhere says that mind invasion isn't possible and its canon, fair enough, I wouldn't argue that. But it's not contradicted in the unaltered OT, and that's the only 'canon' I'm interested in.

Vader senses Luke crying out for his sister. Again, explain to me how you read what he's crying out for by feelings? Fear is a feeling. Despair is a feeling. Pain is a feeling. Sister is not a feeling. You can't feel Sister. His 'thoughts' betray him. There's a key word there, I hope that's a quote from the novelization (even if it isn't its quote from the actual movie).


He didn't probe, that's the point, he sensed. Emotions for a loved one could have a specific signature vs emotions for an object or a friend, or a dog.


But not as specific as which particular relative I'm sure. Especially one that has been his friend (and crush) for several years and only just discovered to be his sister perhaps a day or two ago.

His thoughts betrayed him. He read his thoughts.


Additionally, no one ever in the OT/PT describes thoughts as specific as Kylo/Rey.


So? Why would they, they weren't searching for any kind of information. What if we'd never saw Vader stop blaster fire with his hand in Empire and then Kylo did it in TFA?

Everyone would be sitting here crying foul that its not possible. Why not? Just because we never saw it done before? So the only force abilities we can ever see in the future of Star Wars are those already exhibited so far? I'm glad nobody had that attitude after ANH.


You can ignore the CWAS all you want, but they agree, thematically, with PT/OT in terms of the force, progression of skill with the force, and abilities.


Agree with what, they barely agree with each other. Anakin was deemed too old to train at aged 9 and yet Luke was able to become one starting at age 18 (not have tutelage mind you until his 20's... for like... a few weeks) and within the next three years became a full fledged Jedi Knight.

How is that possible based on the guides of the PT where age 9 is too old, there's an academy, an assigned instructor at all times, and one takes the trials at TPM Obi Wan's age?

Why do they need to go through all that if becoming a full fledged Jedi Knight takes a few weeks of tutelage and about 6 years of self training?

So which does CWAS progression agree with? Luke's version or the PT version?



Don't prescribed words like "spectacular fashion" to Lukes practicing with a droid. That's force-reflexes, that we have no idea how long he'd been practicing WITH a Master Jedi before we cut in. It's UTTERLY different than the progression we see with Rey.


You don't think that deflecting shots at close range that you can't even see is spectacular?

Think about the scene... if he had been training for hours, would it really make sense that he was struggling that entire time (hours) to deflect shots from this remote, and Obi Wan only then decides to say 'stretch out with your feelings and try it blind' when we tune in? Of course not, this is clearly near the beginning of the exercise. Also the conversation between them: "A Jedi can feel the force flowing through him" "You mean it controls your actions?" Does this seem like the sort of thing that would come up hours into the exercise, or learning about the force? Of course not.

I'd also be surprised if it took Han hours to lose the imperials.

He goes from not being able to block a shot from the remote, to blocking three shots in quick succession without even being able to see them! And all it took was a little encouragement to trust his instincts. That is spectacular.


The shot is much more in-line with the skills he'd already established for himself on Tatooine. It was simply shooting...He calmed down enough to sense his enhanced intuition to time the shot...but it's a shot similar to one he'd taken before.


Yes, a shot that he, a farmer who flies a skyhopper as a hobby has been making on a regular basis for fun, but that experienced fighter x-wing pilots deemed 'impossible even for a computer' and sht a brick when sent to do it. One even missed the shot with the aid of the computer.

I assume that Luke has been using the force without even knowing it the entire time.


They didn't deem the shot impossible...they were attempting it. He wasn't first in line to take the shot, remember?


"That's impossible, even for a computer."

Of course they attempted it, what choice did they have, it was the only chance they had at destroying it.

They had to use a targeting computer because they had no chance of doing it manually, and even the targeting computer failed to do it.

Luckily they had Luke and the force.


I didn't see her calm. So we'll have to disagree. The scene where she catches the lightsabre almost looks like she wasn't expecting it. So that's just poorly done all together. The fact that she looked surprised makes things all the more ridiculous and inconsistent with how control of the force is established to work in the SW universe.


You can be in awe that you actually pulled something off and it worked in your favour despite needing to believe you can to pull it off in the first place.



Sensing she wants to kill him sounds like anger...sure doesn't sound like a content, calm mind.


Anger doesn't inhibit the use of the force. If anything it makes it come quicker and easier.



Obi-Wan was also much further along than Rey...a decade more training? Experience? His control of the force at that moment in time should have absolutely dwarfed Rey's, given that she'd only just learned the force is real


And I'm sure it does, but his anger and grief still didn't seem to hinder his connection to the force.



I get that people want to see something different, but to crap on the mythos/lore/canon is just lazy. There are so many directions they could have gone with this!!


Of course, and no matter what they did, they weren't going to please everyone.

What they did do, earned them 2 billion dollars and praise from critics and audiences alike. Mission accomplished.

You feel that they crap on the mythos and I respect that. You're not alone. But the Star Wars mythos isn't concrete, and something like the force, can be a plot device for almost anything. In the PT they used it for a space Jesus story. Where were the hints of that in the OT? Where were the references of Skywalker's being the be all end all of the force? Nowhere.

With that in mind, there are always going to be different points of view on how it works and what its capable of among fans because lets be honest, Lucas, the creator of the force himself, probably doesn't even know or care how it works completely. He made it up as he went along, clearly.

I don't see how TFA craps on the OT at all. I see its something we haven't seen before, but nowhere is it implied that what happens in TFA isn't possible in this universe.

Some book or cartoon that may or may not be canon at the moment? Sure, maybe that does. But I've never claimed otherwise.


Rey absolutely contradicts the OT/PT by disregarding that there is a learning curve. It isn't just granted to you because you close your eyes.


There is a learning curve to almost everything in life, yet some people are naturally gifted and demonstrate abilites that others may take a while to learn with or without a teacher. That's life.

The PT shows us that Jedi are taken at younger than 9 (9 is too old) spend their years training with a master and reach Jedi Knighthood at around Obi Wan's age.

The OT showed us you could start at 18 and do it with about a week or twos training with a master and few years of self learning all the while fighting a war in the meantime.

If the PT were released first, people would probably be going ape sht about Luke becoming a full Jedi in such a short space of time without training because it would crap on the structure of the academy.



The difference with Luke is that he had time to practice and gain experience. Rey did not.


And Luke also seems more competent than Rey. Rey pulls things off, but she is not in total control the whole time. She fails the mind trick and despite achieving the force pull, gets toyed with before she's able to hold her own with Kylo. It's up and down. It's working on reflex and response to need.

Luke on the other hand, after practice, is able to hold his own dueling with Vader fairly well the entire fight. Sure he's outclassed (this is the great Darth Vader after all) but its not all down then up or vice versa. He comfortable pulls his lightsaber to him, using the force like second nature. His experience shows. Rey is pulling off moves and skills, but that doesn't put her in post training Luke's league.


Rey's situation doesn't mean she should get fancier force-abilities quicker. She'd never seen or heard of a mind-trick, and she succeeds influencing a mind on her first attempt at using the power.


Third attempt. And how do you know she'd never heard of a mind trick? Or that Jedi could influence people's thoughts? She'd hear of Luke, the Jedi and the force. What do you think she had heard about them?


The toys and merchandise were not Lucas's intentions...there's been interviews recently where he states as much. Sure, it got a little more PG with the PT, but there are adult themes. Young children in our home wont sit still through the films even though they're full of gorgeous visuals. I don't expect it to have themes designed for children specifically, so I don't consider it a family film...


Isn't Lucas also quoted as saying that he had all six (or 9 on occasions) filmed planned from the get go and then others where he says he didn't?

Toys and merchandise aside, again its a space war story with powers and laser swords, saving princesses, funny creatures, no cursing, no sex. Star Wars is totally a family film. You say iy got more PG in the prequels but weren't they a PG from the get go? In the UK, the film rating is U, which suitable for all and usually the rating for family movies.

What adult themes were in the OT that would make it less family friendly?


Even without Lucas's explanation in CWAS, a force ghost made sense to me in the OT...a master force-user can have an individual consciousness within the force when they're body dies...why is that mysterious and magical?


A dead persons consciousness being perceived within the force and being able to appear as a ghost and talk to the living.

How is that not magical? You know some sort of science that is capable of this?


Well, the difference now, is that the original creator doesn't have a say. So if it violates the previous catalog of canon/lore/mythos that badly, why accept it? For me, TFA has already violated too much, and the direction of the series is essentially ruined. It doesn't fit.



The original creator didn't seem to give a sht enough to double check his original movies before moving on with his prequel set, so I'm not really bothered about what he has to say. I'll always be thankful to Lucas for giving us Star Wars, but it wasn't even really his vision. It's the result of him being reigned in or not having the budget or technology to do what he really wanted.

I respect that TFA violates too much for you.

For myself, and many other fans, the prequels violated too much for us, and so Lucas name attached no longer meant any sort of security. TFA seems to have brought many (though of course not all) of those fans back to the fold. Unfortunately there are many like yourself who feel otherwise, yet we are all Star Wars fans.

That in itself just goes to show how loose the entire thing is or how it can be perceived differently by so many.


It was visually consistent initially, on Jakku, but then it falls apart, for me. It is pretty grounded. The theme of the Jedi believing in a religion through the force explains their presumption of prophecy. It's their interpretation in the film, but it doesn't mean it's truth.


Fair enough, and I would agree, but wasn't that Lucas' intention, to have Anakin fulfill the prophecy come RoTJ, meaning it in fact, according to him, was all true?



Luke was a late teen, living on a farm, that actually supported a family. Are you suggesting someone living on a farm on our Earth, could not simultaneously take up amateur piloting, or, more accessible, stock-car driving? His environment and innate force-skill probably accelerated his piloting skill growth.


Not at all. I'm saying that I don't need to see it to believe it.


If doesn't scavenge, she doesn't eat, so I find it hard to believe she'd survive at all if she WASN'T out looking for loot most of the day. The film expresses her need to scavenge or she'll starve to death. Why would she waste time on hobbies or other skills if not to use them to continue surviving? So it's REALLY confusing that she doesn't!


If I don't work I don't eat. I still have several hobbies and time to talk sci fi on internet boards.

We saw her scavenging and that's a day in the life of Rey. We saw Luke having to clean droids but I don't assume that's what he spends all his time doing.

Her work is scavenging, and sure, she probably puts in more work in the day than I do, but she only has to earn food. She doesn't have to pay rent or bills or taxes etc. I'm sure she has time to do other things just as Luke does.


Force ghosts being explained have nothing to do with Rey's backstory in TFA having little consistency. They're only similar in the sense that they need a little retconning to make sense, but one is a visual accessory, and the other is supposed to describe the main protagonists motivations/development.


Rey's back story is that she's a survivalist above all else. The rest is a mystery. Force Ghosts may be a visual accessory but that doesn't stop the fact that it also expands on the force itself and adds yet another mysterious (at least imo) angle to it.

By the way, does the EU also explain how tapping into this energy field allows people to produce lightning from their fingertips?

Also, I'd just like to mention that despite our disagreements, I do respect your points. As previously mentioned, I do believe that the fact that many discussions like this have been on this board since the movie's release shows just how Star Wars in general can be interpreted differently, depending on what people choose to accept of its many outlets. More than likely due to Lucas making it up as he went along... which I sort of love anyway, in some respects.





Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Yes it's my opinion and you can't debunk the possibility. She was aware of Luke Skywalker, The Jedi and the force. She thought them myth. I've heard stories about Jesus. I've also heard about the miracles he performed. It'd be quite strange if Rey had heard about Luke, the force and the Jedi, but nothing actually about them and what makes them special.

Luke on the other hand certainly hadn't even heard of the force before ANH (probably due to living with Owen who wants him to have nothing to do with his Father), so what would he have heard previously?

And how does mind invasion violate canon? It was done in RoTJ. And even if it wasn't, why does it violate canon? I've never seen it mentioned that it's not a possible ability.



And that's the point. What could Rey have heard if Luke was the only Jedi alive at the time? That he defeated the Emperor, that he destroyed a Death Star? You think she'd have heard of the specific times Luke used a mind trick? It just doesn't fit for me.

Mind invasion wasn't done prior to TFA. That's the problem with this film, most of the defense is that "we hadn't seen anyone say it couldn't be done"... Granted, we'd never seen someone hold a blaster bolt in mid air, but it doesn't seem like a leap from what we know of abilities with the force...it's just an extension of telekinesis with the force. Mind reading to this level was never possible before, and mind invasion never happened when someone's emotions were sensed. It's technically not a canon violation, because it's writing its own!


Greedo shooting first has to do with Star Wars canon and how fragile it is. The original Star Wars 1977 isn't even canon anymore due to the special edition, so my interest in strict Star Wars canon is non-existent.

If some book somewhere says that mind invasion isn't possible and its canon, fair enough, I wouldn't argue that. But it's not contradicted in the unaltered OT, and that's the only 'canon' I'm interested in.

Vader senses Luke crying out for his sister. Again, explain to me how you read what he's crying out for by feelings? Fear is a feeling. Despair is a feeling. Pain is a feeling. Sister is not a feeling. You can't feel Sister. His 'thoughts' betray him. There's a key word there, I hope that's a quote from the novelization (even if it isn't its quote from the actual movie).



The novelization of ROTJ doesn't say Vader read Lukes mind, it's that he sensed the fear for Leia, and heard him cry out for her through the force. He didn't read his mind. Even if you ignore ROTJ, here's a good video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N39apywXfCI

Also this thread has a good answer that references the novel:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/111010/why-was-vader-not-able-to-read-leias-thoughts-like-he-read-lukes-thoughts

Luke can't cry out through the force in the same way he says "father" to Vader?


So? Why would they, they weren't searching for any kind of information. What if we'd never saw Vader stop blaster fire with his hand in Empire and then Kylo did it in TFA?

Everyone would be sitting here crying foul that its not possible. Why not? Just because we never saw it done before? So the only force abilities we can ever see in the future of Star Wars are those already exhibited so far? I'm glad nobody had that attitude after ANH.



There are interrogation scenes in the Clone Wars Animated Series, where Obi-Wan and Mace Windu couldn't read minds.

Blaster fire stopping is just influencing energy/matter with the force, something that makes sense with the basic definition of the force: an constant, all compassing energy field. Maybe if we'd never seen someone use telekinesis, then it'd be a leap.

Is it really that hard to see how abilities come from the same force-capability?


Agree with what, they barely agree with each other. Anakin was deemed too old to train at aged 9 and yet Luke was able to become one starting at age 18 (not have tutelage mind you until his 20's... for like... a few weeks) and within the next three years became a full fledged Jedi Knight.

How is that possible based on the guides of the PT where age 9 is too old, there's an academy, an assigned instructor at all times, and one takes the trials at TPM Obi Wan's age?

Why do they need to go through all that if becoming a full fledged Jedi Knight takes a few weeks of tutelage and about 6 years of self training?

So which does CWAS progression agree with? Luke's version or the PT version?



Potentially the last Jedi in the universe, and they would refuse to train him? How do we know Yoda didn't impart the trials Luke should put himself through to further his training? You're also comparing a time of relative routine and consistency within the Jedi order, to a time when you've got all of 1 Master left that can teach Luke...you don't think the syllabus would change a little?

You really don't see a situational difference in the PT and OT? The CWAS takes place during the time period of the PT, so the Jedi order is still alive and somewhat healthy, so of course it's more consistent with the PT.


You don't think that deflecting shots at close range that you can't even see is spectacular?

Think about the scene... if he had been training for hours, would it really make sense that he was struggling that entire time (hours) to deflect shots from this remote, and Obi Wan only then decides to say 'stretch out with your feelings and try it blind' when we tune in? Of course not, this is clearly near the beginning of the exercise. Also the conversation between them: "A Jedi can feel the force flowing through him" "You mean it controls your actions?" Does this seem like the sort of thing that would come up hours into the exercise, or learning about the force? Of course not.

I'd also be surprised if it took Han hours to lose the imperials.

He goes from not being able to block a shot from the remote, to blocking three shots in quick succession without even being able to see them! And all it took was a little encouragement to trust his instincts. That is spectacular.


The first time you see it, yes, but once you realize he was just attuning himself to his enhanced intuition rather than using it reflexively, it's not that spectacular.

Why is the scene you describe that crazy? It's also exposition. Han was in hyperspace, was he not? Wouldn't he have already outrun the imperials? There's plenty of conversation that could have happened before those comments from Luke or Obi-Wan. I don't know why what they say means they must be at the beginning of a conversation. Luke was standing, with a floating droid...so there was some setup of the situation, no?

He had more than encouragement. He had a Master sensing his connection to the force, someone he could get feedback from. Did Rey have these things? Did Rey fail the first time she tried telekinesis, or using a sabre?


Yes, a shot that he, a farmer who flies a skyhopper as a hobby has been making on a regular basis for fun, but that experienced fighter x-wing pilots deemed 'impossible even for a computer' and sht a brick when sent to do it. One even missed the shot with the aid of the computer.

I assume that Luke has been using the force without even knowing it the entire time.


That's a nice assumption. It's still an assumption. What the film goes out of its way to show us is that he doesn't use the force until he needs to fire the shot. Any innate force-enhancement was there the whole time. The exercise with the droid helped him understand how to control the force just enough to enhance his intuition. He used that same intuition to fire the shot at the correct moment.


"That's impossible, even for a computer."

Of course they attempted it, what choice did they have, it was the only chance they had at destroying it.

They had to use a targeting computer because they had no chance of doing it manually, and even the targeting computer failed to do it.

Luckily they had Luke and the force.



Yes, it was quite lucky he was there with them.


You can be in awe that you actually pulled something off and it worked in your favour despite needing to believe you can to pull it off in the first place.


With the force? You have first hand experience?


And I'm sure it does, but his anger and grief still didn't seem to hinder his connection to the force.


Because he overcame them. It's clear in the scene, he's not screaming, or yelling after the initial reaction.


Of course, and no matter what they did, they weren't going to please everyone.

What they did do, earned them 2 billion dollars and praise from critics and audiences alike. Mission accomplished.

You feel that they crap on the mythos and I respect that. You're not alone. But the Star Wars mythos isn't concrete, and something like the force, can be a plot device for almost anything. In the PT they used it for a space Jesus story. Where were the hints of that in the OT? Where were the references of Skywalker's being the be all end all of the force? Nowhere.

With that in mind, there are always going to be different points of view on how it works and what its capable of among fans because lets be honest, Lucas, the creator of the force himself, probably doesn't even know or care how it works completely. He made it up as he went along, clearly.

I don't see how TFA craps on the OT at all. I see its something we haven't seen before, but nowhere is it implied that what happens in TFA isn't possible in this universe.

Some book or cartoon that may or may not be canon at the moment? Sure, maybe that does. But I've never claimed otherwise.


This is a cop out. They could have moved forward. They didn't have to pander. You think fans would have been mad that they didn't pander or make referential comments?

Regardless if he made it up, it was never a deus-ex machina the way it is in TFA.

It's absolutely a different set of rules relative to force-ability, rules relative to mind reading, and rules relative to relativity. It's a different direction, completely.

I don't know why people need to see new force-powers to make this series interesting. Why can't we have some new damn character arcs? Finn's was ruined, Rey's goes nowehere, and the OT cast is all but dead after being re-arced for the sake of nostalgia.


The OT showed us you could start at 18 and do it with about a week or twos training with a master and few years of self learning all the while fighting a war in the meantime.


What Rey achieves is beyond what Luke does in the same amount of time. Lucas goes out of his way to show us Anakin, 'space jesus' still needs training.


And Luke also seems more competent than Rey. Rey pulls things off, but she is not in total control the whole time. She fails the mind trick and despite achieving the force pull, gets toyed with before she's able to hold her own with Kylo. It's up and down. It's working on reflex and response to need.

Luke on the other hand, after practice, is able to hold his own dueling with Vader fairly well the entire fight. Sure he's outclassed (this is the great Darth Vader after all) but its not all down then up or vice versa. He comfortable pulls his lightsaber to him, using the force like second nature. His experience shows. Rey is pulling off moves and skills, but that doesn't put her in post training Luke's league.



I'm just sick of this discussion because she shouldn't know how to even attempt a mind trick, or that she could do one, or that it exists, based on what the film shows us.

Luke was absolutely being toyed with when he first met Vader. If Vader had wanted to, it would have been over immediately. Sure, Rey was a tiny bit rustier than that, but she'd be on par with Luke within a week given what we've already seen. It's inconsistent.


Third attempt. And how do you know she'd never heard of a mind trick? Or that Jedi could influence people's thoughts? She'd hear of Luke, the Jedi and the force. What do you think she had heard about them?



It was her first attempt ever using the skill. Why would she know about it? Why would she think she could do it? Why would she think to try again after it doesn't work? I don't prefer wild speculation in films, it's uninteresting. I enjoy twists that get you thinking, or characters that are unpredictable, but Rey is just pure mystery box. It's lazy, and it's JJ's trademark. It's ruined the direction of the franchise for me.


Isn't Lucas also quoted as saying that he had all six (or 9 on occasions) filmed planned from the get go and then others where he says he didn't?

Toys and merchandise aside, again its a space war story with powers and laser swords, saving princesses, funny creatures, no cursing, no sex. Star Wars is totally a family film. You say iy got more PG in the prequels but weren't they a PG from the get go? In the UK, the film rating is U, which suitable for all and usually the rating for family movies.

What adult themes were in the OT that would make it less family friendly?



Just because it isn't strictly adult doesn't make a film specifically for families. It definitely doesn't keep kids entertained these days.


A dead persons consciousness being perceived within the force and being able to appear as a ghost and talk to the living.

How is that not magical? You know some sort of science that is capable of this?


The force is an unknown energy field. It's still an energy field, and has rules. George goes on to retcon this with CWAS. Maybe initially he didn't put a lot of thought into the explanation, and maybe he didn't expect the audience to, but now he has, and he's put some bounds on it. Why does it have to be magic? I've seen other sci-fi series that have some form of ascension if you've evolved your mind enough...Maybe they were influenced by Star Wars?


The original creator didn't seem to give a sht enough to double check his original movies before moving on with his prequel set, so I'm not really bothered about what he has to say. I'll always be thankful to Lucas for giving us Star Wars, but it wasn't even really his vision. It's the result of him being reigned in or not having the budget or technology to do what he really wanted.

I respect that TFA violates too much for you.

For myself, and many other fans, the prequels violated too much for us, and so Lucas name attached no longer meant any sort of security. TFA seems to have brought many (though of course not all) of those fans back to the fold. Unfortunately there are many like yourself who feel otherwise, yet we are all Star Wars fans.

That in itself just goes to show how loose the entire thing is or how it can be perceived differently by so many.



The PT doesn't violate anything for me, it expands, but doesn't violate. He could have explained the connection to the force a little better than with Midichlorians, but he wanted to put some bounds on the thing I suppose. What exactly do they violate? What do they do to the characters that sully the OT? Aside from some awful character choices and dialogue, the overarching story works well, and it all fit thematically, stylistically(bad cgi aside).


Fair enough, and I would agree, but wasn't that Lucas' intention, to have Anakin fulfill the prophecy come RoTJ, meaning it in fact, according to him, was all true?


Was it though? If we still have the Dark Side, and we still have threats, couldn't Anakins being just have been someone's force-vision? He'll bring balance to the force...for a minute. I understand what you're saying, but I also think, with George, he has his characters speak from their perspective, not necessarily speaking absolute fact.


If I don't work I don't eat. I still have several hobbies and time to talk sci fi on internet boards.

We saw her scavenging and that's a day in the life of Rey. We saw Luke having to clean droids but I don't assume that's what he spends all his time doing.

Her work is scavenging, and sure, she probably puts in more work in the day than I do, but she only has to earn food. She doesn't have to pay rent or bills or taxes etc. I'm sure she has time to do other things just as Luke does.



If you were eating as little as she was, I'm not sure you'd have interest in hobbies...your first interest would be your next meal. What we saw was a scene to establish her living conditions...sure, she might get a bigger haul, but it seems like she's been eating very little for a while now, but she's no worse off for it. She might have time to do those things, but it still doesn't explain that if she has such skill in secondary hobbies, why doesn't she use them to keep herself more well fed?


Rey's back story is that she's a survivalist above all else. The rest is a mystery. Force Ghosts may be a visual accessory but that doesn't stop the fact that it also expands on the force itself and adds yet another mysterious (at least imo) angle to it.

By the way, does the EU also explain how tapping into this energy field allows people to produce lightning from their fingertips?

Also, I'd just like to mention that despite our disagreements, I do respect your points. As previously mentioned, I do believe that the fact that many discussions like this have been on this board since the movie's release shows just how Star Wars in general can be interpreted differently, depending on what people choose to accept of its many outlets. More than likely due to Lucas making it up as he went along... which I sort of love anyway, in some respects.



Force lightning is a mystery to you? It's just energy...it's perfectly logical if you can control the energy of the force, that you could direct it wildly at someone...Why is that crazy? You'll likely only see dark-side users doing it, because it's an outward, and offensive use of the force. This is obvious with Palpatine and Yoda fighting.

What I appreciate, is that even though we saw "new" things with the force, from George as he expanded his vision, it was all pretty consistent within the confines of the character descriptions. It's an energy field that surrounds us..that's the common definition.

George may be similar to JJ in that sense, he did retcon the force, but only to remove some of the mystery and to put bounds on it so that the saga was still about the characters and not magical-powers. I do appreciate civil discussion, and I can recognize we have different interpretations. Maybe it's related to the types of sci-fi or fantasy you prefer, probably shapes our interpretations of SW. I'm a big Trekkie, but I also appreciate sci-fi in general. I typically don't find fantasy works interesting...Harry Potter was difficult to sit through, for instance.

If I ignore some of your points, it means I agree to disagree. Plus this is a lot of typing...

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Sorry for late response, didn't realise there was more until just now:


What could Rey have heard if Luke was the only Jedi alive at the time?


What she'd heard of The Jedi are not limited to Luke. She says "The Jedi were real?" or something of that nature. Just because Luke hadn't heard of the force doesn't mean everybody else in the galaxy hadn't. The clone wars were only like, 50 years ago round abouts. Surely it's documented and people tell stories.

The stranger question is how Luke didn't know about it. But then he may have even been sheltered from it by Owen.


Mind invasion wasn't done prior to TFA. That's the problem with this film, most of the defense is that "we hadn't seen anyone say it couldn't be done"... Granted, we'd never seen someone hold a blaster bolt in mid air, but it doesn't seem like a leap from what we know of abilities with the force...it's just an extension of telekinesis with the force. Mind reading to this level was never possible before, and mind invasion never happened when someone's emotions were sensed. It's technically not a canon violation, because it's writing its own!



I agree, it's writing it's own, but then that's what it's supposed to do. It's part seven in an ongoing saga.

We do not know the limits of the force. At what point are we supposed to say, right, any ability that isn't a direct extension of the few abilities shown in ANH is not allowed? The 2nd film? third? sixth? They can continue to expand on it as much as they want.

And while many fans may be divided, it seems very clear to me that Vader read Luke's mind in RoTJ. Did he probe as much as Kylo? No, he wasn't directly looking for specific information, he was trying to push Luke's buttons and he succeeded.


The novelization of ROTJ doesn't say Vader read Lukes mind, it's that he sensed the fear for Leia, and heard him cry out for her through the force. He didn't read his mind. Even if you ignore ROTJ, here's a good video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N39apywXfCI

Also this thread has a good answer that references the novel:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/111010/why-was-vader-not-able-to-read-leias-thoughts-like-he-read-lukes-thoughts

Luke can't cry out through the force in the same way he says "father" to Vader?


I'm at work at the mo so can't check the vids, sorry dude.

Sure he can cry out 'Leia' the same we he says Father. But do you really think he'd cry out 'My twin sister!' instead of 'Leia!'?



There are interrogation scenes in the Clone Wars Animated Series, where Obi-Wan and Mace Windu couldn't read minds.

Blaster fire stopping is just influencing energy/matter with the force, something that makes sense with the basic definition of the force: an constant, all compassing energy field. Maybe if we'd never seen someone use telekinesis, then it'd be a leap.

Is it really that hard to see how abilities come from the same force-capability?


As I've mentioned, I have no idea what happens in Clone Wars. never watched an ep, never will. By all means, TFA may contradict that, but that's never been my stance.

Fair point on the blaster fire. But then surely using the energy field to tap into someone's feelings and words they may cry out isn't any different to using that same energy field to tap into someone's thoughts. Where is the different factor here?

Luke and Vader communicate in the force telepathically. The mind trick is a form of telepathy as is reading minds. Why is one a foul and the other's aren't?


Potentially the last Jedi in the universe, and they would refuse to train him? How do we know Yoda didn't impart the trials Luke should put himself through to further his training? You're also comparing a time of relative routine and consistency within the Jedi order, to a time when you've got all of 1 Master left that can teach Luke...you don't think the syllabus would change a little?


Yoda actually did almost refuse to train him, but that's not my point anyway.

My point is that they were able to turn Luke into a Jedi Knight with a fraction of what it took the others before him.

If the length of time (9 is too old) coupled with constant supervision (up until they pass the trials in adulthood) was the way to forge a Jedi, then shouldn't we be scratching our heads at how Luke was able to do so in 5 or 6 years, starting at age 18 with a months supervision all the while being an active part in the rebellion?

He wasn't just using the force, he became a Jedi Knight.


Why is the scene you describe that crazy? It's also exposition. Han was in hyperspace, was he not? Wouldn't he have already outrun the imperials? There's plenty of conversation that could have happened before those comments from Luke or Obi-Wan. I don't know why what they say means they must be at the beginning of a conversation. Luke was standing, with a floating droid...so there was some setup of the situation, no?


Yeah, a set up that left him unable to block a shot from it. A little encouragement, and he'd blocking three in quick succession, blindfolded. Obi Wan's instruction was about trusting his feelings. That was the difference. You mean he never said this to him hours ago when he was failing?


He had more than encouragement. He had a Master sensing his connection to the force, someone he could get feedback from. Did Rey have these things? Did Rey fail the first time she tried telekinesis, or using a sabre?



I don't know what difference Obi Wan's sensing of Luke's connection really makes to Luke given that we see his instructions first hand. The feedback is the same as the initial encouragement. Use your feelings, trust your instincts, believe in the force etc.

What of those who simply do trust their instincts, use their feelings etc without the need for constant reminding?





With the force? You have first hand experience?


With anything. How is being in awe that you actually pulled it off a factor after you pulled it off?


Because he overcame them. It's clear in the scene, he's not screaming, or yelling after the initial reaction.



He looked pretty damn frustrated and eager to me. And in any case, doesn't the lore tell us that anger and grief don't hinder your connection to the force anyway? They merely make it quick and easier.


This is a cop out. They could have moved forward. They didn't have to pander. You think fans would have been mad that they didn't pander or make referential comments?

Regardless if he made it up, it was never a deus-ex machina the way it is in TFA.

It's absolutely a different set of rules relative to force-ability, rules relative to mind reading, and rules relative to relativity. It's a different direction, completely.

I don't know why people need to see new force-powers to make this series interesting. Why can't we have some new damn character arcs? Finn's was ruined, Rey's goes nowehere, and the OT cast is all but dead after being re-arced for the sake of nostalgia.


It's not a cop out, it's a fact. The movie was extremely successful on all fronts. I'm not saying it can't be critiqued because of that, any film can be by fans of the franchise (as I said you can't please everyone) but it seems that they made a good move by pleasing a vast majority.

It doesn't seem like a completely different set of rules to me and many others, merely a different direction. Telepathy is a force trait, reading minds is a part of telepathy. Maybe the cartoons etc say its not but again, that's not my stance.

What we need to realise as well is that ANH needed to stand entirely on its own feet for its future was uncertain. Not the case with TFA. We all watched it well aware that this is part 1 of a 3 part story.

That is a fair critique in itself, maybe it should be able to work solely as a stand alone movie and the characters should reach a point where were there no sequel it could still be wrapped up. I wouldn't argue with that, but it's not a complaint from me personally.

I like a lot of what Finn was, but some of the portrayal wound me up the wrong way. I hope this changes in ep 8.



What Rey achieves is beyond what Luke does in the same amount of time. Lucas goes out of his way to show us Anakin, 'space jesus' still needs training.


And she faced different obstacles. If all she had to do was blow up a Death Star in an X-Wing, I'm sure that's all she would have attempted.

He needs training to become a Jedi and master the force, not use it at all.



I'm just sick of this discussion because she shouldn't know how to even attempt a mind trick, or that she could do one, or that it exists, based on what the film shows us.


I'll admit, it's speculation that she may have heard these details in the stories she'd heard, or maybe episode 8 will answer these questions and its actually supposed to be a later reveal, or that she was able to learn some mind techniques while she was in Kylo's head etc. These are all speculation and not fact, but they are all possibilities that don't contradict the OT.

She's not doing anything that someone else attempted and failed to do in the OT or that anyone presented limits to. She's extraordinary, no doubt about that. But why not?


Luke was absolutely being toyed with when he first met Vader. If Vader had wanted to, it would have been over immediately. Sure, Rey was a tiny bit rustier than that, but she'd be on par with Luke within a week given what we've already seen. It's inconsistent.



Firstly, Vader is a completely different type of monster to Kylo. And secondly, Vader didn't seem to be toying with Luke during the last stand off, and Luke was still able to clip Vader's shoulder, which easily could have taken his arm off if a slightly different attack (point being he caught an opening on him despite their difference in lightsaber prowess).


It was her first attempt ever using the skill. Why would she know about it? Why would she think she could do it? Why would she think to try again after it doesn't work? I don't prefer wild speculation in films, it's uninteresting. I enjoy twists that get you thinking, or characters that are unpredictable, but Rey is just pure mystery box. It's lazy, and it's JJ's trademark. It's ruined the direction of the franchise for me.


That's a shame, and while I don't agree, I do completely understand where you're coming from.


Just because it isn't strictly adult doesn't make a film specifically for families. It definitely doesn't keep kids entertained these days.


While that's completely true and a real shame (kids today can't seem to sit through anything I try to show them from my childhood. They always seem to want to watch cartoons with quick witted snarky characters. It's like Tony Stark types or nothing!), how today's kids feel about it is irrelevant. It was a family film when it was released in 77, main target audience being young to teenage boys I believe.

Its for adults and children alike, hence family. I'll bet most of us Star Wars fans fell in love with the franchise when we were kids.


The force is an unknown energy field. It's still an energy field, and has rules. George goes on to retcon this with CWAS. Maybe initially he didn't put a lot of thought into the explanation, and maybe he didn't expect the audience to, but now he has, and he's put some bounds on it. Why does it have to be magic? I've seen other sci-fi series that have some form of ascension if you've evolved your mind enough...Maybe they were influenced by Star Wars?


Maybe so, but we're still talking about a consciousness appearing within this energy field and maintaining its previously living image as a visual representation, appearing and disappearing at will, sitting and standing on solid objects or choosing to remain a voice. That sounds more like magic than science to me.

You can put a scientific spin on anything magic for sure, but it's essentially a ghost (or was back when we all accepted it years ago. Why did it need an explanation?).

Like midichlorians, sometimes explaining things spoils the 'magic' of the fun. But that of course, depends on the viewer and isn't objective.


The PT doesn't violate anything for me, it expands, but doesn't violate. He could have explained the connection to the force a little better than with Midichlorians, but he wanted to put some bounds on the thing I suppose. What exactly do they violate? What do they do to the characters that sully the OT? Aside from some awful character choices and dialogue, the overarching story works well, and it all fit thematically, stylistically(bad cgi aside).



I'm sure it's all been listed before, but I would say that overall, little inconsistencies aside like Leia remembering her mother who dies at childbirth, Owen buying a droid with a distinctly annoying voice and personality and didn't even realise he'd lived with this droid for sometime and that Anakin (who he wanted to protect Luke from) had built him etc, by 'expanding' he made the universe seem smaller to me. That may sound silly but I'll try my best to explain:

When I watched the OT, the universe felt big. All these people came from random backgrounds and came together. It allowed me to feel there was so much more going on that we didn't see from all over the galaxy. The one thing that was a little contrived was the Skywalker lineage, but that's the twist and a love it.

The PT tied everything close together.

Yoda was no longer just the guru Jedi Master that so happened to train Kenobi, he was THE Jedi Master of the high council.

The Skywalkers were no longer just a family that happened to be strong in the force, they were THE be all and end all of the force, space messiah's here to help fulfil a prophecy.

Boba Fett was no longer a random badass bounty hunter but instead is the result of the Clone Wars, directly tied to the entire army.

Chewbacca was no longer this first mate to a smuggler but was instead a general in the wookie army who consulted with Yoda.

3PO and R2 are no longer the droids that just so happened to be on the ship with Leia but are instead Darth Vader's old buddies, one of which he actually created himself.

Obi Wan wasn't simply wearing desert robes, just like Owen Lars, this is what Jedi all actually wear.

and so on.

Everything felt connected to everything and while that might count as little nods to some fans, to me it just it all feel small and compact.


Was it though? If we still have the Dark Side, and we still have threats, couldn't Anakins being just have been someone's force-vision? He'll bring balance to the force...for a minute. I understand what you're saying, but I also think, with George, he has his characters speak from their perspective, not necessarily speaking absolute fact.


I feel that he's actually confirmed it himself. I could be wrong, but I'm sure I've seen it discussed where Lucas has confirmed that Anakin did in fact fulfil the prophecy.

If so, that puts anything moving forward into a bit of a corner.

We could accept that the prophecy was to destroy the Sith (which he did, dark force users aren't necessarily Sith) or that TFA chooses to see the prophecy how you do and not how Lucas designed it.


If you were eating as little as she was, I'm not sure you'd have interest in hobbies...your first interest would be your next meal. What we saw was a scene to establish her living conditions...sure, she might get a bigger haul, but it seems like she's been eating very little for a while now, but she's no worse off for it. She might have time to do those things, but it still doesn't explain that if she has such skill in secondary hobbies, why doesn't she use them to keep herself more well fed?



Maybe she does when work is available. I'm sure Unkar would pay her for helping mod the Falcon, if she had a hand in that for example. She doesn't want to leave Unkar Plutt because that's where she was left. Also, it is said that when we first meet her, she is getting half of what she would have before.


Force lightning is a mystery to you?


It's a mystery as to why I'd aim it and shoot it from my hands as though its coming from inside me if it's merely created from the energy field that surrounds every living thing including my opponent.


George may be similar to JJ in that sense, he did retcon the force, but only to remove some of the mystery and to put bounds on it so that the saga was still about the characters and not magical-powers. I do appreciate civil discussion, and I can recognize we have different interpretations. Maybe it's related to the types of sci-fi or fantasy you prefer, probably shapes our interpretations of SW. I'm a big Trekkie, but I also appreciate sci-fi in general. I typically don't find fantasy works interesting...Harry Potter was difficult to sit through, for instance.

If I ignore some of your points, it means I agree to disagree. Plus this is a lot of typing...


You could be on to something. Star Wars is generally the only Sci-Fi I like, and even that has been in constant discussion as whether to be referred to as sci fi or sci fi fantasy.

I'm not a Harry Potter fan in the slightest. Only seen one of them, but your point still stands, I am more of a fantasy guy than sci-fi on the whole I'd say.

This has been a fun discussion, but as you say it is a lot of typing and I think we've both covered just about everything from our own perspectives.

Thanks for the debate. If you do respond I'll definitely read it but I think we're almost to the point of going in circles. Agree to disagree and as said, I do understand your perspective and respect it.

Take care!

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

For the sake of avoiding circles, I'll just pull a few things out.

Sure he can cry out 'Leia' the same we he says Father. But do you really think he'd cry out 'My twin sister!' instead of 'Leia!'?


The novelization implies that he cried out 'sister'...Vader figures out on his own that they had to be twins. I agree, this is pretty thin, since it's technically retconned by the novel, but even if the explanation isn't canon it still fits, for me and is consistent with Jedi not being able to directly read minds, much less "invade" them.


With anything. How is being in awe that you actually pulled it off a factor after you pulled it off?


If you were in awe or disbelief after the fact, doesn't that imply there was some doubt in you? Like..If I try something I'm not sure of, and it works, I'll be surprised, might say something like "holy sht it worked!"...but I was only somewhat confident in my method. Conversely, when I've been very sure of myself performing, let's say, a repair for the first time, and I complete it successfully, I'm not surprised. In fact, I'm proud of myself, my ego is boosted. What we see with Rey implies she doubted her ability.


What we need to realise as well is that ANH needed to stand entirely on its own feet for its future was uncertain. Not the case with TFA. We all watched it well aware that this is part 1 of a 3 part story.


This defense bothers me because even the PT trilogy films can be watched alone. There's at least one major plot in each of them: discovering the sith, discovering a clone army, Anakin finally turning to the dark side. They're not giant mystery boxes that rely on what came before and what comes after to fill in all the blanks. TFA leaves way too much out to be addressed later, and I honestly don't envy the guy who has to do that AND try to make a decent film at the same time. Most likely a lot wont be explained.


And secondly, Vader didn't seem to be toying with Luke during the last stand off, and Luke was still able to clip Vader's shoulder, which easily could have taken his arm off if a slightly different attack (point being he caught an opening on him despite their difference in lightsaber prowess).


Similarly Finn clipped Kylo while Kylo was toying with him. I sat through these scenes again recently so I wouldn't be making assumptions, and Kylo was clearly the stronger against both Finn and Rey.


When I watched the OT, the universe felt big.

Interesting, this is completely the opposite from my experience. While the characters may all be 1 degree of freedom apart, the universe, for me, expanded greatly with the PT. Lucas was able to show us more. We finally saw Coruscant. We see worlds full of people. The OT for me, made it seem like the entire Empire was on two Death Stars. It seemed like the Rebel fleet was made up of maybe 15 ships(coincidentally?, it's about this many x-wings that attack the SK base). I completely understand your reasoning for thinking so, but it's interesting our perspectives are completely opposite of eachother!


Maybe she does when work is available. I'm sure Unkar would pay her for helping mod the Falcon, if she had a hand in that for example. She doesn't want to leave Unkar Plutt because that's where she was left. Also, it is said that when we first meet her, she is getting half of what she would have before.


The Falcon is a bit of a mystery for me...she knows a lot about it, yet when Finn asks if she's flown it she says "No, it hasn't flown in years". So I do wonder how much experience she even had with the systems.


It's a mystery as to why I'd aim it and shoot it from my hands as though its coming from inside me if it's merely created from the energy field that surrounds every living thing including my opponent.


A dark-side users force-power comes from within, so this is perfectly reasonable to me.

I appreciate that this is civil, other users seem to have taken it personally that some of us dislike TFA and it comes out in their posts as insults and disrespect. Keep it up!

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


The lines 'Darth Vader, only you could be so bold' and 'I recognised your fail stench when I was brought on board' gives me the impression that Leia has come across Vader and Tarkin before. Making this kid a Princess isn't the best way to keep her hidden really is it?

And Vader only found out about Luke because the pilot who destroyed the death star was found out to be named Skywalker. If his name were Lars, he may not have bothered. Who's stupid idea was it to give Luke Anakin's last name?

Of course the real answer is that Lucas was winging it. But that's why being strict with Star Wars doesn't really work and TFA is not the odd one out.



Organa might have become a bad parent, but we can't blame Yoda/Obi-Wan for that. He doesn't kill her, and even when he's with her, he doesn't sense that she's his spawn, so the ruse works!

Who would have been searching for a Skywalker at all though? They thought Padme died.

Lucas was winging it, sure, but for me, even if some bits are contrived, on the whole, it works. TFA erases character arcs, opts for some cringeworthy exposition in lines like the ones Leia and Han deliver to eachother, and then lacks exposition on a lot of meaty points that end up making the film feel small, confusing and missing a lot of pieces.


It can be suspect all it wants, but it doesn't contradict the OT. She's simply very powerful and a fast learner, or more importantly, a survivalist. The techniques she performs are in response to a need to win and survive. She's not chilling and moving objects around for the sake of it. She is desperate to escape, and like real life, adrenaline can have us performing otherwise seemingly impossible feats, he body may be tapping into the energy field. Maybe she's space Jesus reincarnated. Maybe Luke is playing a part in it. Maybe ANH Luke would have been capable of these things were he not a sceptic and were it needed.

But there is nothing in the OT that says this is impossible or that no other force sensitive has been this gifted etc. We only saw one man's journey, Luke's and we were not told of the force's limits at either beginning or end.



It does, it contradicts what came before. Anakin was midichlorian spawn and still needed direction to use the force proficiently beyond enhancing his feeling/intuition.

Adrenaline and desperation would not instill calmness, and would actually make using the force more difficult. The problem with TFA is exactly in how you defend it...it relies on "maybe". It relies on speculation. It expects you to swallow down the serialized mystery box, and accept the new direction because Star Wars.

What's in the previous material implies this is fan fiction, where our hero gets a power up in the final moments. Not where the hero struggles, and uses their specific skill to overcome, but this is a film where she literally powers-up and humiliates her opponent. We know of the limits. What JJ/Disney are doing are changing the way the force works. It's in the books, apparently. The force is making decisions, and directly intervening.



Because preparation, the use of Kryptonite and the fact that Superman doesn't want to harm Batman are the context of their battle. It's a different context to Rey's battle but the point is that who wins on paper isn't always how things play out.

Some people are far natural at things than others. I study martial arts for example and I see some people walk through the door who are simply amazing right off the bat. They may not know the details of the technique, the understanding of it or the term for it, but they perform it brilliantly just the same. Other have been practicing for years and struggle to grasp certain aspects. Everyone is different and there are not set rules on how everyone progresses.



No, I don't think that comparison works here. Rey may be more natural with innate force-sensing, but that doesn't just give her the knowledge of all the abilities, or how she must concentrate to perform them. Practice, and experience would do that.


Because the entire point of Anakin is that he is to fulfill a prophecy, which he eventually does. That's magic, not science.

If Anakin is the result of the energy field unconsciously doing something, then why is he an isolated incident? Even if Palpatine made him, why make him on Tattooine to randomly be found by two Jedi who ended up there out of desperation? Why not force knock up some... I dunno... hooker that he can easily remove and then raise force baby as his own?


Again, the Jedi believe in the force in a pseudo religious way. But the actual behavior of the force on screen implies it's not magic, and that it isn't sentient.

Lucas specifically uses the midichlorian crap to but limits on it. It also implies the energy field didn't create Anakin. The microbes did. So... How do we know he's an isolated incident? If Rey is also a midichlorian baby, why would she be MORE gifted than Anakin? Why would the microbes tell her how to perform specific tasks with the force?

It's all speculation here...why Tatooine? Who knows? Why have that scene with Palpatine describing creating life with the force if not to make us wonder? Either way, it wasn't the force, it was either a person, or some microbe things.


That has been an ongoing thing with Star Wars. Whenever lightsaber battles come into play, all the other techniques vanish for the majority of it.

When Luke refused Vader, what happened to Vader's telekinesis? Why didn't he simply levitate Luke and not allow him to escape? Where is the force choke ANY time a Sith is getting down to business? Or Jedi for that matter as I recall Luke using it in RoTJ. Just another example of the force being fairly inconsistent itself.

I believe that Kylo's focus is off. He has killed his Father, hoping that will stop his pull to the light, and I don't believe it has. On top of that he's in pain, which surely makes it difficult to focus as well. Focus is a big part of using the force. He can twirl the blade around as pretty as he likes, hell, even I can do that, but if his connection to the force is compromised then he's not in great shape.


No, Kylo was toying with her initially, so why overpower her with the force. What techniques could they use? Telekinesis? They do, often. There's pushing, object throwing...not just sabres.

Luke resisted, and Vader had good in him? Maybe he didn't want to let the Emperor get his hands on Luke just yet? So he lets Luke go, defeated.

You need to be focused, calm, centered, whatever, to use the force...during the heat of battle, it may be difficult, no? Vader not using the choke all the time? Why do they need to again?

Kylo's focus is off, ok. But he appears just fine when he toys with Rey prior to her power up. He's moving fine, she's frustrated, he's confident. His sabre skill is there regardless of his conflicted force-status. Watch the scene though, he's in fine shape. Then Rey powers up, downloads a little offensive skill, and Kylo's sabre skill disappears, his confidence disappears, and she injures him. It's not until this first blow by Rey that Kylo starts to be visually impaired.


A lot of it is in slow motion, It doesn't go on for that long. His range of motion is fine, but he's got a sever injury that must make it difficult to focus, as mentioned above.

Of the two, it is Kylo who is full of self doubt, trained or not.

A big problem here, again comes down to a certain point of view. Kylo fails as the big bad of this movie because he is defeated by an amateur. I get that complaint given that this is the first of a trilogy. But I don't see Kylo as the big bad of this movie. I see him as just another character. Someone who is trying to be the big bad, and failing. That's part of his story. He isn't the big obstacle Rey needs to train to overcome, he is just another character going through his own arc.

Now he will be trained further as will she, and I for one am intrigued to see what will happen the next time they meet, if indeed that is the direction it will go.


It's your opinion that he's having trouble focusing. The scene does not convey this. When he gets fed up with toying with Finn, he disposes of him easily. He force-pushes Rey. The confliction probably starts when he sees the sabre fly to her. But his own skill is still there, and should EASILY allow him to best Rey, even if she uses her new force-skill to enhance her defense.

Exactly, Rey is already super-powerful. She doesn't need to train. I honestly don't understand people suggesting she does when you also say that she should be allowed to just know all these skills because there's nothing explicitly stating this isn't how the force works. So now she DOES need training?

Kylo was trained by Luke, and then continued his own training/study for how many years? Did he have less, or more time with a sabre, and the force, than Rey?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

d_myerss wrote:

I do not believe that Luke was training hours due to the nature of his jump from failing to deflect anything...It doesn't at all look to me that he 'finally got it' it looks to me that it was near the beginning of a very basic and relaxed exercise.

The timing of the training that Luke receives is vague, but I don't think Kenobi would immediately have blindfolded Luke and asked him to try and deflect the blasts from the droid. It seems more reasonable - and I freely concede that this is speculation! - that Kenobi offered Luke some degree of guidance, or encouragement, in using the Force, then monitored him as he tried to use the lightsaber to parry the droid, then blindfolded him.

The destruction of The Death Star is a tricky one, because as you point out, it is a heroic moment, but at the same time, did it take a lot for Luke to achieve it?

To me, Luke's destruction of the Death Star in ANH is both a demonstration of his heroism and refutation of his "Gary-Stu"-ness. It's an amazing shot, which strikes an amazing blow against the Empire as a whole; at the same time, it's only barely made by Luke, who's had to be saved twice - first by Wedge, then, at the crucial moment, by Han - and, of course, the shot's already almost, but not quite, been made by another pilot.

The force is mysterious, and there's nothing in ANH that says Luke may not have been able to also perform a mind trick if he really needed to and the situation called for it.

It's pretty clearly established that using the Force requires training, and this is made even more clear in ESB, and the EU (as it was!) as a whole.

Other Force sensitive's may take to it like a duck to water due to less scepticism. Perhaps Rey is such a person.

Rey is a skilled hand-to-hand combatant, brilliant pilot, astonishing engineer, Force sensitive, Force user, and lightsaber wielder.

My gripe with Rey isn't that she's skilled in the Force, but that, apparently, she's skilled at everything!

The reason Luke fails to lift the X-Wing is because it's different in his mind. Perhaps Rey is able to perform the mind trick and achieve other abilities because she doesn't disbelieve, especially given her circumstances, needing to escape.

Luke is being trained by a powerful Jedi Master, but still fails.

Rey has only heard of the Force, and succeeds.

It's bad writing - Rey's prowess makes a mockery not just of Luke, but of pretty much every Jedi who's ever appeared in the SW saga.

What he required was perfect marksmanship to hit a target that more experienced fighters failed to do with the use of a targeting computer. And that's exactly what he used the force for.

Exactly - Luke's use of the Force in ANH is basically to enhance his senses, nothing more; it's like an adrenaline rush that allows one to achieve something that they would otherwise founder at.

Rey can over-ride other people's minds, and summon objects to her, overcoming another powerful Force user to do so.

Was Obi Wan Kenobi a Master of The Force when he had his little braid and defeated The Dark Lord who had murdered Qui Gon, A Council Worthy Jedi Master, moments before?

Kenobi was a padawan who'd received years - a decade? of training from Jinn, also established as a powerful user in the Force. His defeat of Maul is seen as an astonishing feat (and this is made even more clear in the novel), but good reasons for his ability to achieve it are provided. It's not like Rey who can just fly really well, just performs repairs really well, just feel the Force really well, and just use it really well.

I watched this again last night and in all honesty, she doesn't pilot the Falcon with any particular skill save for turning the engine off mid dive, which is more ballsy than skilful. She bashed into things more often than I remembered.

Rey's take-off is bumpy, but she clearly demonstrates her superlative skill - a skill that takes even her by surprise, so that when Finn asks her how's she's flying so well, she shouts back that she doesn't know.

She certainly wasn't an expert lightsaber user. She seemed to be struggling the entire fight until the very end.

Watch the fight again. Having stunned Ren by overpowering his attempts to summon the lightsabre and claiming it herself, Rey launches an attack. He fights back, and she basically fights a retreating action; then, calming her mind to attune herself to the Force, she rallies and resoundingly thrashes him.

Their fight lasts for about 3 mins, and ends with him lying broken and defeated at her feet.

So, in Rey, we have a master combatant, skilled pilot, brilliant mechanic, intuitive and powerful Force user, and triumphant lightsabre combatant, who achieves, by the conclusion of ANH, a triumph that Luke won't achieve until the conclusion of ROTJ.

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Yoda wouldn't teach Jedi for 800 years if he knew nothing about fighting. They downplayed the warrior angle simply because he was much more than just that. It didn't mean he wasn't a warrior.

Luke showed up on Dagobah and then left with more skills than he had before. We spent so much of ESB with Luke and Yoda, it felt like ages. Maybe you wanted to see him learning to duel, but the movie didn't have time to show that, so it happened offscreen.

The point is, Luke got some training before he tackled the bigger obstacles in the OT. You wanted to see him train more, fine. But he still trained to some degree.

I am Djour Djilios. Could you spell that please? I don't think so. Try it with a "D".

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Exactly.

"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Yoda wouldn't teach Jedi for 800 years if he knew nothing about fighting. They downplayed the warrior angle simply because he was much more than just that. It didn't mean he wasn't a warrior.



The warrior downplay was because he wasn't a fighter at the time. This is not speculation, it's from Lucas' own mouth during 1981 writing sessions for ROTJ. Yoda was a guru, a Master but not a Jedi Knight. TESB was specifically written with the notion that Yoda wasn't particularly (if at all) focussed on the 'war' side of things. That's the whole vibe of TESB. "Your weapons, you will not need them".

Yes, Luke showed up on Dagobah and then left with more skills. But we as fans have to extrapolate how, in that ridiculously short period of time, Luke gained the fencing skills that he did with a teacher who (canon aside) seemed more concerned with levitating rocks. We then had to extrapolate how Luke went from having his butt kicked in TESB to full-blown Jedi ninja in ROTJ with no teacher whatsoever!

As I keep saying - that's fine! It doesn't bother me. Never did. But with Rey they actually gave her a legitimate fighting background and everyone suddenly has this crazy standard for Jedi powers. Look at the powers Anakin had at age 9 - podracing beyond regular human levels, psychic enough to pass Windu's test - and all because of (ahem) Midichlorians. Luke learned levitation with no teacher because, um, just because, and became a proficient swordfighter...uh...off camera!

Rey is strong with the Force (obviously) and has an actual fighting background, and everyone's like "nope, not realistic".

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


The warrior downplay was because he wasn't a fighter at the time


Yoda taught Jedi, and part of their training is how to handle and defend themselves in battle. They carry sabers for a reason, and someone needs to teach them how to use it.


in that ridiculously short period of time,


Bear in mind the film makers only had three movies to tell the story. How long Luke trained for in terms of months or years is irrelevant. What is relevant is that we saw Luke train for most of an entire movie. We saw him grow before our eyes as a force user. You add in the years between each movie where Luke takes the things he learned in training and studies & perfects them, and that's enough.

You want Luke's training seen in full? The OT would've gone on for 3 more movies and sucked balls.


But with Rey they actually gave her a legitimate fighting background and everyone suddenly has this crazy standard for Jedi powers


No one cares about Rey beating up everyone. The main issue is her having Jedi powers without so much as someone explaining the force to her, nevermind giving her a couple of lessons in how to channel it.

I am Djour Djilios. Could you spell that please? I don't think so. Try it with a "D".
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