Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens : Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Rey was almost a side-character at the very end (except that ludicrous hug scene with Leia over Chewie).

lol, side character...almost?

- overides SK security opens doors,
- helps plant charges,
- rescues Finn from Kylo,
- defeats Kylo with saber tug o war,
- defeats Kylo sword fighting (the clear center of the film, SK was mere background noice),
- gets the VIP embarce fom Leia as reward (Chewie is ignored)
- gets cheerleading "may the force be with you Rey" from Leia
- gets cheerleading look from Chewie, and
- becomes his fraking captain on the fraking Falcon!!!!!
- gets the super central plot mission of meeting Luke alone
- only she is allowed to meet Luke, not Chewie, R2 or Leia (frack the old characters and friends, they are fraking worthless, we must glorify the fraking Sue)

That is thr worst crap written for 8 year old I have seen, The PM was more mature than this sh!T, man.

over and out dude

🐾Dictated but not read 🐾

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

And you could make a list like that for the things Luke does.

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

*Luke fails to take care of R2- R2 runs off
*Luke gets knocked unconscious by sand people, probably would be dead if it weren't for Ben
*Luke is luckily away while the Empire murders his aunt and uncle
*Luke has to get of the planet, needs to hire a pilot to get past the Empire
*Nearly beat/dead in the bar
*gets to play with a sabre on the falcon, learns that his senses can be enhanced by the connection he has to the force. Shows rudimentary connection to it.
*gets caught by the Empire.
*Plan to Rescue Leia somewhat fails. Also relies on Ben to disable tractor beams
*Relies on Leia to get them down the garbage chute
*relies on droids to save them...

....I could keep going on?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

This is exactly what I was talking about before. No one changes their minds. It's just one long argument where people keep bringing up points and then someone else counters, the other person counters and on it goes forever with no resolution and no change in anyone's opinion. This could go on forever. It's just pointless.

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Because there's no way Luke's failures and Rey's successes are compatible. If you say you can make a similar List of Luke's Gary Stu-ness while also being honest about the times he should have been killed or the times he needed help, please do it. Maybe then you'll recognize his characterization through ANH is utterly different from Rey's.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

And that is your opinion, but it's only an opinion and not one I share. I seem them as being the same just different gender. He has power and abilities and so does she.

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Did you watch some Super Special Edition of ANH that I haven't heard about?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What?

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Did you watch some Super Special Edition of ANH?

It's a reasonable question...is there some new version where they compress his skill growth so that he has all of his ROTJ powers in ANH? That's the only way he and Rey gain the same force-skill in one film.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

really WRONG. let's see

- flies X Wing with R2 as copilot, who repairs stuff
- gets ass saved by Wedge
- gets hit by Tie, R2 repairs
- in trench run: gets his ass covered by comerades and friend, who SACRIFICE themselves for him
- R2 takes a hit
- Luke gets his ass saved by Han, or Luke would be dead
- Dead Obi Wan tells him to trust instinct/Force
- finally makes killer shot by pulling trigger

see the difference in writing? even his big moments are nothing against Mary Sue.

And before that:

- gets beaten up several times
- does not understand languages
- gets tricked by droids
- fails to save folks
- is whiny and reckless, unable to get away deom Owen
- gets ridiculed by Han
- gets a punched by Chewie
- Sister is way more advanced than him (leader senator)
- his rescue plan sucks, sister takes over
- gets rescued by droids
- Han/Chewie are so much cooler
- Obi is so much more poewerful
etc

Quod erat demonstrandum, dude. If you do not see the huge differnce to Rey, nobody can help you anymore...

🐾Dictated but not read 🐾

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

What @krugbot, @TristanJones and I are telling you is... quit being a...
👇 👇 👇
"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Rey, who almost has a panic attack when she has a vision and wants to go home. Then gets captured. Fails to save han solo. Struggles against a severely injured opponent. Has to be saved by chewbacca at the end. And has almost nothing to do with destroying the base and saving the day, which mostly comes down to Finn and Poe. I could go on but you should get the idea.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

If he was severely injured, they did not show us that through his actions.

If she failed at saving solo, then so did Chewie and Finn....

Did Poe get any recognition for the base? The base was background...just look at how silly they were about planning to destroy it...it's like they didn't even care. Let's trust the traitor without asking him what he plans to do! yea? Ok! YES!

Yea, she almost has a panic attack, runs outside, kills some soldiers with a blaster she's never used. Total failz!

Then she gets captured and saves herself from said capture. MOAR FAILZ.

Then she's saving herself but silly Han and Finn come and muck it up...she probably would have escaped all on her own if it weren't for those nerds!

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

he was hunched over, struggling with each hit, looked like he was in pain, it was very very very obvious. if you didn't notice, that is your problem. anyone that has a problem with this part just baffles me.

not denying that. still a failure on her part.

The base was going to kill everyone and took up a huge chunk of screen time and is not just background. her part is personal, no one in the universe outside of a few main characters care about what she did.

You have a problem with her using a gun? still doesn't take away from her having a panic attack and running away due to fear.

If Finn and Solo were not there she would have either been captured again or killed.

The film is far from perfect, but some of you guys need to calm down a bit and realise that the original also was far from perfect.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Waxern did a good job explaining the scene, in the final fight, he doesn't have a grimace, in fact, he never touches his wound...but maybe with Finn...still, he toys with Finn, which is actually the fight that should have been more trouble...Finn was actually trained with melee weapons to defend against sabres. Rey had never used a sabre.

The funny thing about her using the blaster is that she kills trained soldiers on her first go.

If Finn or Han were not where? I thought she was captured right then? If she were captured again, she'd just escape again. The movie establishes she can get herself out of any situation.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

yes he does have a grimace, he is also covered in sweat, he grunts ad he visually tires and slows down as the fight goes on. rey has a staff and had to defend herself her entire life alone on a hostile planet and is a force user, anyway she spends most of the fight running away and struggling to beat an opponent that by the end is struggling to even attack her.

so did luke and leia and a lot of other star wars characters. storm troopers have always been comically terrible. being slaughtered by everyone. you don't have a point here.

on the base obviously. if they didn't find her, the troopers or ren would eventually have found her and killed or captured her.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I guess we watched a different movie, or you're projecting your desires of what actually transpired. Somehow her staff skills transferred to light sabre skills? She defends herself. He lets her force-power-up for whatever reason, and she bests him.

He EASILY ended Finn after his toying with Finn allowed Finn to get a few shots in..In retrospect, Finn, who was melee trained to fight against sabres, should have been able to do this if Kylo wasn't a force-user.

Then Rey, who has no sabre experience, is able to defend herself after being thrown into a tree. She's only been a force user for the last 10 minutes, but sure, she's force user...granted she shouldn't know how to use it, but hey, whatever. He's struggling by the end because she learned sabre skills, even though that isn't how the force works. He isn't struggling because of his injuries.

No, I do have a point...how does Finn survive if he's just a stormtrooper? Because he became a good guy his shots not hit their mark? You can't have it both ways.

She was on her way to escape, she would have gotten off the planet without assistance. She could just mind trick troopers to get away, right? Why would they kill her? Kylo wants her alive.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

TFA apologists see what they imagine these characters to be instead of what's onscreen.


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Wrong way around. I see the characters as they are presented. Most people bashing it excessively are just projecting what they want to think onto the characters. I by no means think that Rey is a perfect character and I do agree that to an extent she does to much at times. But the way people talk about her is at times over the top. The force Awakens has problems but is not anywhere near being terrible like some say. At least everyone should agree that it is a mile better than any of the prequels.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Structurally, it's a mile worse than the prequels. Story wise, it's quite shallow, and awful. World building is non-existant. From our experience with the film, there's a desert planet, a base, a cantina planet and a resistance planet. The republic is destroyed, so the way the movie feels, that's the size of the universe.

The dialog and casting choices of the prequels are..ick...but I'd rather watch them again than attempt to sit through TFA.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

And how many planets were shown in ANH? Tatooine and the planet the rebel base is on. That's it. The rest either happens in space or on the deathstar.

"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I agree World building left something to be desired. But your other points are objectively completely wrong. Episode 1 and 2 are among some of the worst blockbuster films ever made. They fail completely in terms of story, characters, editing, dialogue, acting, basic continuity, cinematography, blocking and directing. Episode 3 is just about a watchable film. If you like them more that's fine, I understand why you don't like TFA. But objectively they are not even close. TFA beats them in every single category bar maybe music.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Objectively? You mean subjectively. TFA FALLS apart after the Jakku sequence. Why anyone does anything in this movie is unclear. The structure is nonsense, and then they insult relativity with the planet explosions.

Like the appearance of R2 and C3PO in Rogue One, a lot of scenes should make new fans to the SW universe tilt their heads and raise an eyebrow. The pacing, music, editing...it was a flashy action movie. Maybe it succeeds there, at being shallow.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

No, subjectively you can like them more. But objectively the prequels are very poorly made. explain why the structure is nonsense. The film has a clear three act structure, obviously very similar to a new hope. Do you think that has poor structure as well? do you have any examples of why character motivations are unclear?

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

You need to look up the definition for the word 'objectively'. You're misusing in a fallacious attempt to strengthen your argument.


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


I by no means think that Rey is a perfect character and I do agree that to an extent she does to much at times.


I actually agree with you there. I was surprised at the things she could do but I see it as a mystery, why she is the way she is. They clearly have a huge story planned and Rey's powers are a part of that.


"I will not be strong armed by threats against my laundry"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

So, why couldn't they tell it? This mystery box crap that JJ started with LOST has 'lost' its charm.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Because it's a trilogy, this is only one part of a larger story. Kinda like how in empire there are a load of loose ends that are tied up in the next film.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

But watching it on its own, you aren't left with gaping holes, and characters have consistent and fleshed out arcs. The pacing doesn't overwhelm the storytelling.

The loose ends aren't mystery boxes that require excessive exposition to explain in the next film. It's primarily centered around Vader and Luke.

In TFA you have characters that haven't had an arc yet, or, they had one, abandoned it, and now they're something else(Finn as comic relief). Why did he defect? Why did everyone trust him?

What's the story behind 3PO? R2?

What's Rey's backstory? Does it even matter?

How did Rey get abilities so quickly? Who are the knights of Ren, how did they defeat Luke?

I can come up with probably 100 more. In ANH you COULD come up with a list, but the story wasn't hurt by those questions. The story was complete. ESB tells a complete story as well, but it is part of a larger arc. TFA REQUIRES the other movies to make sense. Throws in idiotic throwback lines for the sad sake of nostalgia that you'd need to watch the originals to understand, and then will require retcons for all the new mystery boxes they threw in.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

You are such a hypocrite all of your issues can be applied to any star wars film. Empire requires watching a new hope to set up the characters and return of the jedi to fill in the loose ends. there is no difference. The reason a new hope is sort of self contained was that they did not know if there would be a sequel, even with that we have little idea of what anything means outside of the main characters. we no nothing of the rebellion, the empire or anything else. TFA works as the first part of a larger story while still working on its own by having its own self contained story. It works in the exact same way as empire, so stop being hypocritical.

You are just making up problems now. If you didn't like the movie that is fine, but don't try to make up criticisms. maybe some of the issues in the film are to distracting for you, such as an over reliance on nostalgia. I understand why that may be to much for some people.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I'm not making up problems, all of those loose ends exist. Do you think a film explaining all of these stupid points will be interesting? It wont, unless they ignore a lot of those mystery boxes...

As it is, TFA feels unfinished and sloppy. If you don't think so, your tolerance for shallow plotting and character development is greater than mine.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having some mystery in a film. As is TFA feels like the first part of a larger narrative. The prequels barely have a plot and close to zero character development, as it stands you are still a hypocrite making up issues to make a film look worse than it is. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but you are coming off as either a troll or a rabid george lucas fan boy.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I appreciate what he created, more and more. Stylistically, thematically, canonically, the prequels fit the universe, and do a hell of a lot of world building.

TFA fails here. It's copying a major plot from another movie, has incredibly simple character development, and for the returning cast it actually erases character development.

Finn should have been SOOOOO different, but once he rescues Poe, he's a sidekick. He kills the brainwashed minions that he should actually relate to. There should have at least been some hesitation, or some guilt immediately after...but he cheers "did you see that!" when he hits a turret..I guess that's the cure to emotional distress. The fact that he isn't socially screwed up is ridiculous. It's nonsensical. Look at how it was done in Rogue One.

This is just one area where the film loses me.

Jar Jar was awful, and so was kid-anakin, but the flow of the film, and overall arc was more interesting than rehashing ANH.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

The prequels barely have a plot? The plot of TPM is the liberation of Naboo, and the discovery of the Chosen One - Anakin. Then there's a few side plots in addition. The plot of the AOTC is the pursuit of the queen's assassin, how the Clone Wars are started, and how the Jedi are drawn into it. The plot of ROTS is Anakin's fall to the Darkside and transformation into Vader. And also the fate of the Republic and the major players in the war. (I know, I know... Plinkett told you that they didn't have a plot!).

The Anakin Skywalker character is evidence of character development alone...


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

In other words, people should agree with your opinion which is more based on your emotional attachment to Rey than comparing how over the top Rey's numerous Force accomplishments are to how Luke enhanced something he was already trained in!


"Silly TFA apologists!" = 🙉🙈🙊

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I think its you projecting. I've looked over the scene and I am correct. People with the force have always been shown to be more capable than normal even without any training. Luke masters blocking blaster bolts while blind on his second go. doesn't seem that far fetched for her to defend against an opponent that probably should probably be dead. whether you want to believe it or not he is severely injured, nothing you say will ever change that.

Finn is not a force user, which gives him a instant disadvantage. also his injuries are mainly an issue later on in the fight, also he does not want to kill rey, also he just killed his own father which visibly had quite a big emotional impact on him. so in the end Rey beat an emotionally crippled, severely injured opponent not that big of an achievement.

No sabre experience that we know of. Being thrown into a tree isn't that big a deal when compared to luke having large heavy objects flung at his head and surviving a huge fall it's consistent within the series. The force is a bit to vague in the films for us to make it a basis for an argument. I personally always viewed the force as something that improves peoples reflexs and that the more complex things were all about self belief which to an extent the films back up. kinda like how things work in the matrix. He is struggling due to his injuries. I don't know how you can't see it.

Storm Trooper incompetence has always been a problem in the series. why is it only a problem for you in this film.

You do not know that. Your just projecting now. If she was going to escape on her own she would have escaped on her own.

I think it's clear that we are just not going to agree here. We can just shake hands and agree to disagree if you want. no hard feelings it was a fun little argument.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


Luke masters blocking blaster bolts while blind on his second go.

No..at what point do we see him Master this skill? He gets hit, tries again and succeeds. Does that imply DEFINITE success if he attempts again? What if I started screaming next to him and asked him to repeat. Could he concentrate well enough?


doesn't seem that far fetched for her to defend against an opponent that probably should probably be dead.


Ah, but your defense here is that because Luke "mastered" defense against a toy droid, that Rey should be able to defend against a person, with more dynamic, actually deadly, attacks. In addition, your position would require Rey had handled the light sabre a bit before even being able to defend herself. So, lets assume they both picked up the light sabre at the same time...never used one before, never practiced. Luke gets hit. Does Rey?


Finn is not a force user, which gives him a instant disadvantage. also his injuries are mainly an issue later on in the fight, also he does not want to kill rey, also he just killed his own father which visibly had quite a big emotional impact on him. so in the end Rey beat an emotionally crippled, severely injured opponent not that big of an achievement.


Finn, like other FO troopers was trained to fight against light sabre users. The melee trooper is your evidence in film, and the novelization is additional. Finn would actually have MORE experience using the blade than Rey.

Your position also expects me to believe he's injured, when he was able to keep up with the fleeing Rey and Finn, then force-throw Rey, then EASILY dispatch Finn once he saw toying with him was a bad idea. At no point do we see him crippled by his fathers death, or and hint or reminder that it just happened. Try again, referencing specifics from the scene, because what I recall is that he hits his wound a few times, but doesn't hobble over in pain from it, and his force ability isn't hampered.


No sabre experience that we know of. Being thrown into a tree isn't that big a deal when compared to luke having large heavy objects flung at his head and surviving a huge fall it's consistent within the series. The force is a bit to vague in the films for us to make it a basis for an argument. I personally always viewed the force as something that improves peoples reflexs and that the more complex things were all about self belief which to an extent the films back up. kinda like how things work in the matrix. He is struggling due to his injuries. I don't know how you can't see it.


Right, based on the movie, which is how I have to judge the character, she's never before used a light sabre, let alone against another person.

Being thrown into a tree isn't a big deal? It could have at least reduced her ability to concentrate, similar to what happened to Luke in the scene you reference...It shouldn't have given her the ability to use telekinesis, then defend herself, then force-power up and win the battle.

The force isn't vague. It's only vague if you want it to be. The strength of the Sith is that the power comes from within, it's related to emotions. If anything, he should be stronger for killing Han, or his anger should have helped. He does use the force, so his ability isn't diminished, he just doesn't use it again, so that Rey can power up. Oddly, she's obviously not sure of herself, evidenced by her look of doubt when the lightsabre lands in her hand, so how exactly was she able to use the force? Dark side? How'd she know to even be able to use telekinesis? How'd she know whispering "the force" would let her download sabre skills?

The inherent "reaction" improvement of the force should have let her dodge blows in the fight, but only narrowly, since Kylo is 15+ years more experienced with use of the force. The entire scene is constructed so that Rey survives, dominates, and is victorious, coming away without a scratch. Luke lost his hand the first time he tried something similar, and he had the advantage of a few years of practicing with the force...

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

You are such a nit picker, and soooooo much of what you say is purely you just projecting what you want onto the characters and the situation. go watch the movie again and actually pay attention. because there is so much wrong with everything you say.
I think this film has proven how dumb some modern audiences are. the film clearly shows, mostly through visuals why you are wrong. you are so wrong its painful. you are clearly deluded and blinded by your hatred of the film. lets just part ways here.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

I write specifics...specifics are me projecting?

So point out which visuals clearly make me wrong? I was open to liking the film, but JJ made it for the masses, it's a watered down film that the youth and the nostalgia craving can easily attach to. Disney knows their audience.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

Your writing specific projections.
For kylo rens injury. first off they use the rule of three with showing how powerful chewies gun is. they show us how powerful it is, then reminds us later, and finally we are given the payoff when kylo is hit by it. this signifies to the audience that kylo is hurt significantly. It also shows that kylo is able to take a hit that would kill a normal person. At the beginning when he fights finn he uses the pain from his wound to fuel himself, but the audience is also shown that kylo is bleeding which signifies that he will become weaker as the fight progresses. regardless of whether you think they show it well enough in his performance or not is irrelevant (they do show it well enough, your just choosing not to see it) because we are shown through editing and visual signifiers that he is severely injured.
Star wars was always made for the masses. As for nostalgia, star wars has always done that. Star wars was meant to prey on peoples nostalgia for the old flash gorden serials that George grew up watching. I do not think TFA is near as good as episode 4 or 5 but it is pretty on par with 6 and absolutely destroys the prequels. I can't take anyone who defends the prequels as better seriously.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

So, Kylo should have been killed by the blaster then? Or at least flung off of that walkway? How'd he stay put?

No, they do need to show it. If they don't show him being crippled, then he isn't.

Star Wars wasn't made for the masses...with the exception of Jar Jar, TPM was George's story, not a fan-pandering story that made nods to the OT. The trash compactor line from Han is so utterly out of character, but casual fans eat up the empty nostalgia..

For TFA to destroy the republic, tarnish the arcs of the OT characters, it's committed it's first offense. Then to have shallow character development and inconsistent behavior for all of the new characters just makes it confusing. You wanted it to be good, so that's how you're seeing it. For some reason the PT offended you emotionally, and now that we have something that isn't Lucas, you're slobbering over it.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

The idea that they got across is that he is more powerful than a storm trooper which is why he didn't die. pretty obvious.

but they do, how can you not see this? as the fight goes on he gets slower, he's sweating he's grunting, he's hunched over. Again your choosing what you want to see.

According to George it was made for children. You also have behind the scenes footage of george getting all sad about how episode 1 won't beat Titanic at the box office. Also the prequels pander a lot to nostalgia. there are videos showing all of the little references to the original trilogy. then you have terrible crap like anakin building 3p0, R2-D2 being treated like a hero for doing his basic function of fixing a ship, everything about Jango fett. Yoda knowing chewbacca. Most of which makes the universe seem really small rather than building it up. in the first two prequels we see a total of around 4 new planets i think. In TFA we see 6, 2 that get blown up. and 0 returning planets.

I personally liked that they destroyed the Republic, shows how serious the villains are. I liked what they did with the ot characters, although I understand how some may take issue with this. I thought the characters felt as consistent as the characters from the original trilogy.

I have problems with TFA, I think its good not great just good, hardly slobbering over it. I liked the prequels as a kid, but i grew up and realised that they are very poorly made. I still enjoy talking about them because they are an interesting look into how films can go terribly wrong when not given limitations. Also I was not a big fan of Rogue one, still better than the prequels, but should have been a lot better.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

But he's just flesh and bones...he didn't see the shot coming, so he wasn't prepared for it...so because his "bad guy level" is greater, he doesn't go flying? What is it?


but they do, how can you not see this? as the fight goes on he gets slower, he's sweating he's grunting, he's hunched over. Again your choosing what you want to see.

Link me to a video of this, I refuse to go out of my way to watch it again. Maybe against Finn he was, but he's still, even injured a trained student, under Luke and then Snoke or whoever. 15 years trained...all he has to do is force freeze Rey again.

Sure, he was hoping based on nostalgia it'd sell, but he didn't directly pander at the level that TFA does. TFA's world building is small in the sense that we don't visit the Republic capital, see that there's a living galaxy, we get a blip, and then it's gone, and then we have small scale just like ANH, so we get to have a big bad weapon and tiny Resistance saving the galaxy all over again.

You should really rewatch the OT, then TFA immediately after, paying attention to Leia and Han...utterly different characters now.

TFA is such a poor cash grab of a film, that the rushed script and sexist writing alone should be enough of an argument against it, but alas...

Rogue one was a throw away story, but it was 100x better at developing that story compared to TFA. The cringeworthy addition of C3PO and R2 was awful, and mentioning the force a billion times was stupid, but it was otherwise a much more solid, well constructed film compared to TFA.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

well the novelisation backs up the idea that killing his father took a toll on him, which is already obvious in the film. we also have the fact that kylo is tempted by the light side which causes a lot of doubt within him, which the film also makes obvious. we also have the fact that kylo tends to fall a part when things start to go wrong again the film makes this obvious. so everything put together rey beating him is not a huge feat. if she fought an uninjured ren, he would have destroyed her.

Yes he did. did you just completely ignore the examples i used. It could easily be argued that they are worse than anything TFA did. I have issues with what they did in the film but these issues are not huge for me. I feel that they did enough new to warrant making the film.

I have, they felt like a natural evolution of the characters considering the amount of time that has gone by. You know the film was written by Lawrence Kasdan, the guy that wrote episode v and vi he probably knows a little bit more about Han And Leia than you do.

Sexist writing? Actually they went through many ideas and drafts for TFA. the phantom menace is notorious for having a rushed script.

It really wasn't, the pacing was very poor in the first half and the characters were very flat. it had some cool moments but in comparison to TFA was very unpolished and uneven. the r2, 3po part was very awkward. Surely they could have put them into the film in a more natural way. Although still that manages to be better than what the prequels did to those characters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE8-YaoKa-o

This video explains why he lost, pretty interesting stuff. Most of which is very strongly hinted at in the film or outright stated.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


well the novelisation backs up the idea that killing his father took a toll on him, which is already obvious in the film. we also have the fact that kylo is tempted by the light side which causes a lot of doubt within him, which the film also makes obvious. we also have the fact that kylo tends to fall a part when things start to go wrong again the film makes this obvious. so everything put together rey beating him is not a huge feat. if she fought an uninjured ren, he would have destroyed her.


Let's assume he's injured. Should be dead, but whatever, he's merely injured? He's still the more skilled. Rey has ZERO sabre skills, she shouldn't have any chance against an even injured Kylo.

I can't find it, but JJ Abrams was supposedly quoted as saying Rey won because of the power-up, not because Kylo was injured.


I have, they felt like a natural evolution of the characters considering the amount of time that has gone by. You know the film was written by Lawrence Kasdan, the guy that wrote episode v and vi he probably knows a little bit more about Han And Leia than you do.



The film was written quickly, while shooting, because the original wasn't finished. The rushed script is obvious. Kasdan might have a history with SW, but this movie was worse than any EU book I've read.


Sexist writing? Actually they went through many ideas and drafts for TFA. the phantom menace is notorious for having a rushed script.


Yes, making Rey infallible, having her never need a man, and having her never injured...that's sexist.


It really wasn't, the pacing was very poor in the first half and the characters were very flat. it had some cool moments but in comparison to TFA was very unpolished and uneven. the r2, 3po part was very awkward. Surely they could have put them into the film in a more natural way. Although still that manages to be better than what the prequels did to those characters.


The pacing in TFA is fine, if you have ADHD. It never settles down, it jumps from shallow plot point to shallow plot point. Why does anything happen? The decisions most characters make are made because..plot? Why do we trust Finn with the SK Base plan? The brainstorming there was something out of CSI...It was not SW.

I watched the video, and he still does not come up with a satisfactory explanation for Rey's abilities, or her ability to even handle a light sabre without mentioning backstory or the novelization. Based on what's IN THE FILM, she should be injured, if not dead. Definitely not the victor of that battle.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

There is no assuming he is injured, he is, that is a complete undeniable fact, MOVE ON. If you can't find it he probably did not say it.

She relies on Finn, on han, on chewie, and will rely on Luke. Again you are just projecting. I've looked through the thread, people have consistently been proving you wrong. So does the reverse apply, there are a lot more films where men are never helped by women, is that a problem. Look at the man with no name, he rarely gets help from anyone and constantly get himself out of situations, do you hate that character, what about James bond, Indiana jones, he very rarely gets help and usually saves himself and people from impossible situations, do you hate all them. What about die hard, he might get a little hurt, but he always kills dozens of military trained bad guys is he also terrible. You probably hate almost all action movies in general. All of these characters fight and beat people that they in no way should be able to beat. what about rocky, he is a terrible boxer, yet is able to go up against an opponent that is in almost peak physical condition and nearly win, he should have been knocked out in round one.

Ok its fast paced, kinda like how for the time the original was considered very fast paced. but compared to, most modern blockbusters, Like Fury road, or the marvel films it actually takes its time and has time to breath. Look at reys introduction, that is not fast paced its slower and gives us a sense of how isolated she is.

Based on what we see in the film she swings the sabre around like a novice would. obviously to some degree she knows how to look after herself and defend herself, see as how she has had to do that alone her entire life. To be fair reys abilities are probably being left a mystery for a reason, your arguing over just a part of a story. Can't you at least wait until you have the full story before getting angry about it. if they do a terrible job answering the questions that arise than go ahead have a field day. but until then as obi wan once said "patience, Use the force, Think"

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.


“[Rey would] take this moment of hearing the Force and thinking about what Maz had told her about closing her eyes and letting it in. And so she has this incredibly internal moment that is extended in movie time where she basically feels it, accepts it, and is now ready to kick his ass.”


JJ said this. Without this moment, Kylo's injuries mean nothing, she would have lost.


She relies on Finn, on han, on chewie, and will rely on Luke. Again you are just projecting. I've looked through the thread, people have consistently been proving you wrong. So does the reverse apply, there are a lot more films where men are never helped by women, is that a problem. Look at the man with no name, he rarely gets help from anyone and constantly get himself out of situations, do you hate that character, what about James bond, Indiana jones, he very rarely gets help and usually saves himself and people from impossible situations, do you hate all them. What about die hard, he might get a little hurt, but he always kills dozens of military trained bad guys is he also terrible. You probably hate almost all action movies in general. All of these characters fight and beat people that they in no way should be able to beat. what about rocky, he is a terrible boxer, yet is able to go up against an opponent that is in almost peak physical condition and nearly win, he should have been knocked out in round one.


She never relies on anyone. She rejects Finn's hand, she scoffs at his idea to use the Falcon. You're seeing what you want to see. The FILM ESTABLISHES THAT SHE SURVIVES ON HER OWN. How many scenes were there that she was in mortal danger that she actually needed saving? If you think she couldn't have figured a way off the planet, then that's the only time, so she was reliant on Chewie. Any other time, she saves herself. This isn't about Bond. The point is a Gary Stu character like Bond in the SW universe just doesn't fit.

You make a lot of assumptions. I like consistency, and this film craps all over SW universe consistency and canon, and does so prominently with the character of Rey.

The original is fast paced? They sit down and talk several times. There are plenty of expositional and establishing scenes. This film felt rushed and confused. Like, for instance, Poe...why everyone loves him is confusing, he's hardly in the movie!

Fury Road grouped in with Marvel films? Say what? COMPARED TO OTHER SW FILMS, the pacing doesn't fit.

If she were such a novice, Kylo should at least injure her, she should at least get the sabre knocked out of her hand, or get kicked...

A movie should stand on its own, I shouldn't need to wait for other source material to explain such huge gaps. What you want me to do is not think, but speculate. The ability for a film to create opportunities to speculate does not make that film good.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

If the injuries meant nothing then he would not have been injured, how do you not get this. The injuries are the reason she survived to that point, that is a fact. She overcame him at the end partially due to what jj said and due to the injuries and the trauma of killing his father. It is the 3 combined that allow her to win.

She needed finn to shoot down the tie fighters, if he were not there she would have been shot down, and he injured kylo even further and gave her time to get up after being thrown into a tree, and chewie shot kylo, and rescued her at the end. Just to compare everyone celebrates Luke and Han blowing up the death star, no one cares that rey sorta injured an already injured bad guy. she doesn't get a medal or ceremony, all she gets is a hug.

If you like consistency then i don't get how you like the star wars. It has never been a consistent series at all.

For the time it was considered very fast paced, part of its influence on cinema is that pacing started to get a lot faster in general. Honestly if you find the film confusing that's your problem it is not hard to follow at all, my 8 year old brother can follow it easily. I would have liked to have seen more of Poe in the film, he was a fun and charismatic character and just instantly came off as likeable.

I grouped it in because it is fast paced and the marvel films are fast paced. I'm starting to realise why you had trouble understanding this film. Well episode iv has kinda inconsistent pacing and v generally has very good pacing, vi is a bit all over the place, starting off very fast than slowing down too much and then the climax is a mess in terms of tone, Don't even get me started on the prequels. Star wars does not have a pace that has been consistently used through out the series. also you can not and should not expect a blockbuster from 2015 to be paced like a film from 1977.

Ok I can give you that point, still no where near enough to discredit the scene entirely but it is something.

That is not necessarily true. Episode v and vi do not stand on there own. The lord of the rings movies do not stand on there own. As i have continuously said it is the first part of a larger story. If this was a movie that would never get a sequel I would have problems with it, not enough to call it a bad movie but i would have more issues with it. You seem to understand nothing about pacing, structure or storytelling, so I think this conversation is over. Have a nice day

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

snmcfadden3 wrote:

Episode v and vi do not stand on there own. The lord of the rings movies do not stand on there own. As i have continuously said it is the first part of a larger story.

Episode IV A New Hope (which it wasn't even called, upon its original release) could, and, of course, did stand alone for three years.

ESB does end by looking to the future - was Vader telling the truth? Will Han be saved - but it's not an endless series of riddles. Luke's growth from heroic pilot with some degree of Force skills to apprentice Jedi is fully explained, quite unlike Rey's effortless acquisition and display of Force powers.

And true, Episode VI probably does require people to have seen at least ESB, but it can be watched on its own (I saw it as a wee lad on its original release with little awareness, or memory, of the previous two films, and it worked a treat on me!).

To IMDB, or not to IMDB - because I've got some questions.

Re: Picking Rey apart but leaving Luke alone.

If JJ says she powers up to kick his ass, then the power up was needed because she should have been toast already. Still, force-power up DOES NOT mean sabre-skill power up.

Had Finn not been there, would she have picked the Falcon at all? I forget, did the imperials track Finn, or BB8 to Unkars?

She's established as a survivor, she saves hereself. Rey and Rey alone flipped the Falcon to manually target the trained enemy pilot...so, I think she could have figured her way out if Finn weren't there.

You might not think so, but if you watch all 6 movies, and watch all the animated series, and have read some of the books...it's all pretty consistent with the Force, character arcs, hyperspace travel... TFA is the sore thumb in the mixture that I've been exposed to. Aside from Vader's tantrum in RO, and the appearance of R2/C3PO, and the shameless Leia scene, RO fits as well. I suppose the mention of the force is also cringe-worthy..
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