The Best Years of Our Lives : question - Fred and Marie

question - Fred and Marie

At the start of the film, Fred says to Al something like, "You've been married 20 years? We didn't even have 20 days!" * He tells Al that he met Marie at training camp.

Later, Marie says something like, "That's the first time I've seen you in civilian clothing."

So far so good.

But then later comes the scene where Fred tells Marie that he'll fix her a meal, like he did for her behind the soda counter.

So now I'm confused. If she only knew him at training camp before he left for war, and therefore she only saw him in uniform, when would she have seen him at the soda counter? Was there a soda counter at training camp? I find that very unlikely.

Am I missing something here?

(* By the way, Fred did seem extremely surprised to find out that Al had been married for 20 years. I'm not sure why this should have surprised him so much, since Al was pushing 50. I'm assuming that Fredric March was playing a character roughly the same age as himself. And what's odd about a 50 year old being married for 20 years? Some of them have been married for longer than that. I draw one conclusion here: that deep down, Fred didn't believe that his own marriage would last 20 years, so he acted all surprised to hear that someone else's marriage had lasted that long.)

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: question - Fred and Marie

Well, yes, you did miss something, or rather, you misheard or misremembered the line. Fred didn't say, "Like I used to do for you behind the soda fountain." He said, "Like I used to do behind the soda fountain." He was simply referring to his prewar occupation; he didn't say that he had actually served Marie from behind the counter. As you noted, he met her while he was in the service; Marie was not from Boone City.

In the film Al couldn't have been pushing 50 (even though Fredric March was indeed almost 49 when filming) simply because no one that age would have been taken into the service (say, around 45 at the time of Pearl Harbor). There would have been professional soldiers, including sergeants, of that age but no civilian over the age of 39 would have been accepted for military service, certainly not in combat. The kind of service a man of such an age might have had is seen in the position Dean Jagger held in Twelve O'Clock High, basically a desk-bound clerk or staff sergeant.

So Al (as opposed to March) would have to have been no more than 36 or so to have been able to enlist in 1941 or 1942. Even so, for him to have been put into combat seems unusual, though I suppose such things happened. From an age point of view that would work out to Al having been married for 20 years by 1945 (or 1946), or about 16 years when he entered the service, and as in the movie his kids by now would be significantly grown up from when he had last seen them. Yet while all of this is feasible it does seem to be stretching it a bit, or perhaps March was just too old to have been the right pick for the part (from an age-crediblity aspect, not because of any issue with his acting).

As for your conclusion that Fred's surprise that Al had been married 20 years implied that he didn't think his own marriage would last that long, I completely disagree. I think Fred's reaction is one of surprise in part because that would make Al rather old for active duty, but mainly as to how it relates to his own marriage. Fred was just laughing about the contrast between Al, long settled down with a family, to himself, married in the service and not yet having had any domestic life at all. But Fred clearly figures his marriage will last -- in that same scene he talks about how all he wants is a good job, a good future and a house for him and his wife. No hint there, or in the way he talks about Marie, that he expects any marital trouble, believes he married the wrong woman or expects the marriage to end.

Re: question - Fred and Marie

Oh, okay, thanks. I'll need to watch this film again to catch the exact quote.

And good point about the age required to get into the service. I never thought about that. So yes, Fred's surprise would have had nothing to do with his own marriage. He would have been surprised that someone as young as Al could have been married so long, as well as the points you made in the final paragraph.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: question - Fred and Marie


There would have been professional soldiers, including sergeants, of that age but no civilian over the age of 39 would have been accepted for military service, certainly not in combat.


I've heard anecdotes of boys who lied like rugs about their age in order to enlist and escape deprived childhoods. The G.I. Bill was a tremendous incentive, a kind of mash-up of Bernie Sanders- and General Patton-sensibility.

Re: question - Fred and Marie

The "G.I. Bill" (actually the Servicemen's Re-adjustment Act) wasn't passed until 1944, so no one could have enlisted in order to gain its benefits until very late in the war. I don't know how much of an incentive it would have been anyway, since most of the people it helped were already in the service by the time it was passed, or were coming into draft age. A lot of underage kids did try to enlist, especially in the months immediately after Pearl Harbor, but to say they did this simply to get the benefits of the G.I. Bill is either flat-out impossible (since it didn't exist until 1944) or something of a slander against thousands of young men who wanted nothing more than to fight for their country. I'm sure you can always find some exceptions, but anybody who'd scheme to enlist in the armed forces at the risk of their lives solely for the purpose of getting some nebulous rights after the war is pretty damn stupid.

It's true that a lot of young men were eager to enlist in part to escape unemployment or other deprivations left over from the Depression, but at best that was only one reason. Mostly they wanted to get into the war to defeat this country's enemies.

Re: question - Fred and Marie

hilary,

I think Audie Murphy fits your description nicely. We're all glad he got away with it, too.

PS -- I'd prefer Eisenhower/Patton to Bernie/Patton.

Re: question - Fred and Marie


I think Audie Murphy fits your description nicely.


Not entirely, cfwente. Yes, he lied about his age, but he enlisted in 1942, two years before the G.I. Bill, so that wasn't an incentive for him, which was also part of hilary's description. Audie wanted only to defend his country.

Re: question - Fred and Marie

hob,

I was only referring to his enlisting underage.

Re: why do I sense….

Why do I sense that this will turn into an argument about modern politics?

I started this thread, but my question has been answered, so I'm outta here.

Proceed with your discussion.

Me, I'll just say...Happy 150th birthday to my country! July 1st is the big day.

🇨🇦

(At least I know that, when we're back at the polls in 2019, I will still be allowed to vote. I'm female. I'm not so sure about my female neighbors to the south in 2020....not sure what rights they'll have four years from now....)

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: why do I sense….

Mrs. Queen,

Long time, no talk to. Welcome -- and happy birthday to Canada!!!

(You can relax. I've no doubt the female population down here will proceed louder than ever . . . if that's possible. Hey, you wouldn't be starting a modern political conversation yourself, would you?)

Re: why do I sense….

Ha ha...I have zero interest in politics. Thankfully the Canadian politics are very tame and quiet, as opposed to Certain Countries where Trump is probably already preparing his re-election campaign. (He might want to look at doing a few laps around the White House, in order to avoid heart attacks/strokes.)

I'm happy to live in a country where we have parties which are left/right of center (along with the far left/right). We don't have to choose between flag burning and the triple-K. There is such a thing as being moderate politically.

I was in a place today which was tuned into CNN and they were talking about more investigations into Clinton's emails and investigations into Russia's role in Trump's campaign. Honestly, I hope that, in 2020, you guys get candidates who won't have any sort of, um, history and baggage, if you catch my drift. I'd like to see younger candidates, too - people roughly my age. We've already accomplished this in Canada (our Prime Minister is 5 years older than I am).

Anyway, I'll certainly be paying attention to see if female USA citizens are still allowed to vote in 2020. I doubt it, but we'll see what happens.

Nice to see you again!

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: why do I sense….

Where DO you get such ideas?! MUST be CNN. Anyway, nice to hear from you again, too.

Re: why do I sense….

Oh, I don't watch CNN on my own. I have been in a couple of public places in the past where they would be tuned into it, and I was just amazed at the hoopla. I really prefer our (peaceful) Canadian stations, where I can find out where the car accidents are and other boring stuff like that...but at least it's not hoopla. I just skim the online articles of the Canadian stations. I don't watch the news anymore, like I did about 15 years ago. I don't think I've ever seen any public place in my area tuned into Fox News. My guess is that it's probably the same sort of hoopla as CNN. Geez...

As for my ideas, they are my own. I wouldn't be surprised if female USA citizens wouldn't be given the right to vote in 2020. Abortion will probably be made illegal, too, and the abortion clinics will just go "underground", like they did before it was made legal. Or else the ladies will come to Canada to have it done, because it's legal here.

I'll just say that, if a certain overweight 70 year old wants to get reelected four years from now, he might want to look into an exercise program, and maybe go on the Michelle Obama diet. He could use a better hairdo, too.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: why do I sense….

My recommendation to 70 year old, over-weight people (like me!) would be to follow the Melania Trump diet rather than the Michelle Obama diet. Have you seen them together?! As to male hairstyles, I kinda think they're rather low on the priorities list of presidential issues for most American voters. Where on the list do they fall in Canada?

P.S. -- Watch out for those over-powered pick-up trucks this winter. I read they're equipped with tire chains!

Best, my friend and have a happy New Year! We're going to have an especially happy one this year, notwithstanding my wife's bound to be disenfranchised or thrown into prison. Love her to death, so please send a file!

Re: why do I sense….

Has Melania ever expressed an opinion of her own? I'm just wondering.....

Anyhow, Michelle is a beautiful woman. I'm glad that she's able to speak her mind. Women should be able to...and I suspect that many folks in my province will disagree. I think that a lot of people in my province think that girls should be married at 13 and that women should wash clothing & dishes by hand. (I'm going by conversations which I've heard in public places and by letters to the editor written to our right-leaning newspaper. And I'm no eavesdropper. Those conversations I overheard were said at top volume.)

Male hairstyles for politicians: our Prime Minister has a nice haircut and a really nice rear end. See, I have my priorities straight.

Most pickup truck drivers in my province think that they own the roads. If they don't like the fact that I follow the speed limit when I'm driving, too bad. Seems like each winter, some of them give the rest of us lectures on the importance of owning a pickup truck with winter tires. I have never had winter tires, only all-season tires...and I'm just fine. My sister has winter tires on her large vehicle (not a pickup truck) and once she skidded through the intersection because of icy conditions. She was driving slowly. If it's slippery, it's slippery. Winter tires won't do much for that, despite popular opinion in my province.

As for your last paragraph...huh? What are you trying to say about your wife? I'm confused.

By the way, I got an earful from CNN again today, in another public place. I doubt that Fox News is any different. Do you guys EVER take a break from discussing politics? Geez.....

I'm hoping that the Trumpster will fix the economy. If he approves the Keystone Pipeline, then the economy in my province will REALLY improve. As long as he stays out of women's issues, I'll be fine with him.

(By the way, maybe the Trumpster will invite you to the White House and you both could do a few laps around the White House together....haha....)

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: why do I sense….

My friend, you are a delight to talk to! Well, old "bad hair" and I share the same philosophy of governance (mostly), but I couldn't keep up with him running laps. I've got some heart problems and need 8-9 hours sleep a night and I understand he needs only 4.

CNN and Fox news were designed to talk politics, so . . . just switch channels when you want to get away from it. That's what I do. Btw, there is a huge difference between CNN and Fox (check it out). Fox provides both views of an issue even though their pundits are primarily conservative. CNN is a dedicated public relations operation for the Democrat Party in the U.S. Some of us call it the "Clinton News Network" -- for demonstrable reasons.

My last paragraph was a poor attempt at humor: After the "Trumpster" takes my wife's vote away (which you fear) and she faces imprisonment (an assertion CNN could easily be persuaded to broadcast), I was asking you to send me "a file" to help me break her out.

Best, as always

Re: why do I sense….

You, sir, are a Gentleman and I sure hope that you won't let the heart problems get the best of you.

I should clarify that I didn't tune into CNN on my own. I was in two different public places where they had it playing top-volume. I've seen it in the past and it was no different - nonstop talk of politics. Frankly, I have zero interest in watching CNN and Fox News. I don't even have cable at home. I stick to my DVDs. When I want to read the news, I go to ctv.ca (Canadian Television) and cbc.ca (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). I'll also skim our local newspapers. Even then, I avoid the opinion columns.

Hey, I sure hope that women's rights in the States won't be sent down the tubes in the next four years. My opinion is that Trump is a brilliant businessman and he should stick to what he does best - business. Fix the economy.

Do you know much about the Keystone Pipeline? It's to run from my province to Texas. I think that Obama made a serious error in not approving it. He's hot, but he made a big boo-boo here. The pipeline is to start at our oilsands, near Fort McMurray. Does that name sound familiar to you? That's where the big wildfire was last spring. It made worldwide news. I know an IMDb user from Missouri (on the watercooler board) and she said that they got the smoke from that wildfire. Meanwhile, we didn't get much of it in my city, even though we're only about 5 or 6 hours southwest (by car) away. It just depended on the direction of the wind.

As for politics, I try to stay as moderate as possible. I lean left on some issues, right on others, and stay in the center the rest of the time.

Left:
-social issues, human rights
-women's issues

Right:
-treatment of criminals. They should be punished. We have too much of the bleeding heart mentality in my country

Center:
-environment
-economy
-anything else I might have missed

Thankfully I live in a country where we have more candidates to choose from. I don't have to choose between flag burning and the triple-K. It's possible to pick a candidate who is closest to the center. Provincially, I'm a bit of a strategic voter, I admit. Federally I tend to stay closest to the center.

Overall I find politics to be boring. I hated Social Studies in school. To me, politics is just a lot of talk, really.


~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: why do I sense….

Like I said -- you're a delight to talk with.

Re: why do I sense….

...and unlike Melania, I'm capable of expressing my own opinions about various topics. That won't change in the next four years.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: why do I sense….

My goodness, are you an intimate of Melania Trump???

Re: why do I sense….

Let me just put it this way - I like the company of women who are capable of expressing their own opinions....

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: I hope I didn't………….

Hey, I hope that I didn't offend you about the overweight 70 year old comment. I was really talking about Mr. Bad Hair, not about you.

Anyhow, you guys have had a Hottie for a President these past 8 years. Time to move on, I guess. At least we have Mr. Nice Rear End for a Prime Minister in my country, so it's all good.

Happy New Year to you and yours!

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: I'm curious if you guys…….

Hey, do you guys get a holiday today (Jan 16th)? I know that it's Martin Luther King Jr day in the States, but is it a national holiday over there? Here in Canada, we don't observe that day.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: I'm curious if you guys…….

MLK Day is a national holiday in the U.S., though many conservatives are trying to repeal it or modify and rename it out of any meaning.

Of course it wouldn't be a holiday in Canada or anywhere else. Why would it be? King was an American. We don't mark John A. Macdonald's birthday!

Re: I'm curious if you guys…….

Why would conservatives want to repeal a national holiday? Geez, a long weekend is a long weekend....

We don't mark John A. Macdonald's birthday, either. I have no idea when he was born. However, we do observe Victoria Day, a week before your Memorial Day. Why do we bother? Who cares? It's a long weekend! Time for many folks to go camping. (Of course, it usually rains and sometimes snows that weekend....)

Thanks for your reply, hobnob.

(I was kinda wondering if you and cfwente would start to snarl at each other on this thread... It's been awhile since I've seen the two of you get into a lively political discussion....)

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: I'm curious if you guys…….

Mrs. Queen,

Why would conservatives want to repeal the MLK holiday? I got good news for you -- they don't! We honor him too much. I think our friend, hob, gets all his news from CNN (or worse).

Re: Hey………..

Hey, why don't you check out the sites cbc.ca and ctv.ca, the ones I told you about on the other thread? Hopefully you will see that we Canadians are capable of talking about something other than politics on our news home pages.

~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =

Re: I'm curious if you guys…….

It was conservatives who fought making this a holiday in the 1980s, including even people like John McCain and his state's governor for a time, Evan Meachem, who also used the term "pickaninnies" while in office. It's conservatives in the South who are trying to rename the day to something irrelevant. It was conservatives who opposed civil rights legislation in the 50s and 60s. Decades later, William F. Buckley Jr., hardly a liberal, wrote that the single greatest failure of the modern conservative movement in America was opposing civil rights laws. Buckley himself had said in the 60s that blacks were happier being governed by whites, a view he later repudiated. Buckley was however instrumental in banishing some of the extremists from the mainstream movement in the 60s, notably the John Birch Society, and some other anti-Semitic and racist groups...all of which have made a strong comeback as honored participants at things like the C-PAC conventions.

Unfortunately our friend cfwente gets all his news from Fox News, the white man's excuse channel. "Both sides"? What a laughable lie.

Re: question - Fred and Marie

hobnob:

Although it isn't stated in the movie, Al could have enlisted at an older age than 36 if he had been in the military previously (e.g. as a WWI vet) or in the reserves or National Guard. But since the movie makes no mention of any prior experience in the armed forces then pretty much everything you noted is basically airtight and Al couldn't have been much older than 40 in 1946. And yet he behaves and comports himself like a 50 year old, doesn't he?


Secret Message, HERE!--->CONGRATULATIONS!!! You've discovered the Secret Message!

Re: question - Fred and Marie

Hey vinidici,

Yes, you're right about the ways Al could have served in the military. But I think a major problem is the one you pinpointed: namely, that he comports himself like a 50-year-old.

Apart from the fact that Fredric March was almost 50 (49), back in those days people tended to look and act older...at least, older than our concept of such an age today. I mean, look at Millie -- when Al arrives home she's wearing a very matronly dress that looks like something out of the 1910s. In so many ways she comports herself as if the best years of her life are just behind her. It's never stated how old she is, but Myrna Loy was 41 and I expect Millie wouldn't have been much different. Today 40-year-old women wear bikinis and sexy dresses, exercise and take care of their health and look better, but it's in large part a matter of attitude...and so it is with Al and other men. Societal norms were just so different in those days, for better or worse.

Remember that when Millie asks Al, "Weren't there any young men in the service?" he replies, "No, they were all old men -- like me." That's a comment on the way the war made them feel, but it also reflects the prevalent (and narrow) attitude about how you were supposed to conduct your life at any given age. Talk about old before your time!

Re: question - Fred and Marie

Well, notwithstanding some less than pure, pristine, 100% PERFECT casting for Al, there can be no denying that Fredric March was one of Hollywood's greatest actors. Even so, it just seemed to me that his important position as a banker would call for someone who should be closer to 50 than 40.

But these rationalizations of mine (he candidly confessed) are products of my own inner mechanisms for harmonizing continuity errors, narrative discrepencies and other imperfections in most any film that's worth its salt; which helps me to suspend my disbelief for the sake of enjoying the movie. It's the same process that allows me to overlook the actual ages of James Stewart and John Wayne in THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE (as opposed to the 15-20 years younger men they were portraying) in favor of taking in the overall merits and the slightly uncomfortable truths that the Ford Western puts forth. So sue me.


Secret Message, HERE!--->CONGRATULATIONS!!! You've discovered the Secret Message!




Re: question - Fred and Marie

All true. Movies do after all involve the willful suspension of disbelief.

However, there's an old maxim about filmmaking: Audiences will accept the impossible; they will not accept the improbable. They'll accept any premise even if unlikely or outright impossible, but insist that characters comport within acceptable limits of day-to-day logic even within fantastic circumstances.

The ages of the actors, or even of the characters, in TYBOOL don't quite reach the threshold of having believability issues, but their ages do run close to the edge. As with your example of Liberty Valance, some viewer indulgence is necessary, but the audience's credulity is at most strained, not broken.
Top