Black Mirror : How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

I've been reading the quibbles about San Junipero not being "Black Mirror" enough. To me it is absolutely terrifying and here's why:

1) You're living the same day over and over. This wasn't mentioned, but to me it didn't have to be. You are, same parties, same bars, it's always perfect, it's always beautiful.

2) The end was very matrix-like. Your essence is essentially some data in a tube in a bank of thousands of other tubes and it begs the existential question is that really you in there?

3) The theme of feeling came up several times. I feel like sensation isn't the same in there and eventually you'll end up in Quagmire, which is an apt name.

4) you have to die to live there permanently. That is the most horrifying element. You give up your feeling, unpredictable life to be somewhere where there is no struggle, no problems....easy button. There is no guarantee that is "you" in there, I can't stress that enough.

Anybody else feel like people are glossing over the horror of this episode because it was "pretty"?

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

1) I assume if they can will a wedding dress that easily, San Junipero's restrictions are in place for nostalgia/Alzheimer's purposes and wouldn't be necessary in every server with the non-trial version. If they can recreate whole decades and true to life humans, it doesn't make much logical sense to be that "graphically" restricted. If it was only 80s 90s and 2000s in that block of town, I agree, that would suck, but even then I assume there would be updates?

2) Hate to break it to you, but you're not made of magic dust now, just carbon fleshmeat. So you'd be made of much smaller silicon fleshmeat, same diff. Yes it's really you in there.

3) Agreed, mental issues seem likely in the transition, but I also have to assume they have some GTA-like system for "trolls" losing their minds, maybe a therapy server to help with those issues specifically. And if you really don't enjoy it or can't take it for whatever reason, you can always unplug permanently.

4) Hate to break it to you, but you have to die anyway, and there's probably nothing after that. If there's no real heaven or already-established Matrix, creating our own is the best we got. So, overall pretty hopeful.

I don't think they glossed over anything this episode. I'm glad it horrified you, it is a radical concept, and it would be so disconnected from traditional "life" in many ways. I just don't think many people think that deeply about all the implications. Still, the appeal isn't prettiness for me, although it would be unimaginably beautiful. I think one of humanity's deepest desires is life after death, or at least more control over when they choose to go. Obviously the machinery has to break down and the sun has to explode eventually, so it's only relatively permanent anyway.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

I think what OP is getting at with #2 is the issue of what happens when you upload data to the cloud. It's not like physically moving X from A to B. It's making a perfect copy of X at B and marking X at A for deletion.

So, is a copy of you still you? I think White Christmas asked that but didn't really answer it.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Everyday is but a copy of you from the day before. Every experience creates a copy and each time an element is added or taken away. If your child died, would you be the you of the day before? No. Are you the you of 15? No. So I wouldn't worry about being a copy. You, we, already are.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

1) Are we really just copies of previous selves? It seems to me there is a difference between copying and gradually changing all the time, which we all seem to be in the process of. You can make a copy without deleting the original, but can you really say that the you of yesterday exists today?

2) What would happen if you made multiple copies of yourself? Would there be multiple you's? Would only one of them be truly you? How does this happen? Why can't you make a copy of yourself that is living in San Junipero while you are still alive? If you could, how would this also be you?

3) What if the server gets destroyed? Surely then it would be similar to dying in the regular sense of the word?
(It seeems possible that the digital copy of ourselves could be running much faster than ourselves on silicone, as suggested on both White Christmas and playtest, so that say a second in time on earth could equal a thousand years in San Junipero. Even if humanity doesn't destroy itself and the servers stop running, the heat death of the universe is coming at some point, so you could never quite stay in San Junipero "forever").

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

You can use whatever word you want. You can talk about an actually physical copy or a copy of our essence (emotional, mental, spiritual) that its us but not quite the same us as yesterday or before an experience. Since all our cells die and are replaced, all not at the same time of course then we would be dead, then you could say physically we are a copy of what we were before every single cell in our body die and was reborn.

Personally, I think this would be a great short to watch in a philosophy class for discussion.

http://www.auplod.com/u/dalpuo430da.png
(\ v /)
(='.'=)

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

1) how can you be sure when you wake up tomorrow morning it will be same you as went day before to bed?

but i get you, i don't care if i will live as copy in some cloud if myself as original will stop existing, it's pretty horrifying idea, it was discussed pretty extensively in forums or movie Prestige

all the technology seem wonderful until moment when they tell you that you actually die and there will be living only copy of you, i wish there would be way to confirm it's not just copy but actually transferred mind, i don't want copy of me living somewhere

though longer i think about it, it should be possible to transfer the actual mind once we find it, though our technology ain't that far i guess

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

you are trying your best to see only the surface( while crying "hate to break it you" to op).

op is right, this was a dark episode like the rest. it is just better made and not in your face, so people like you can look away easily.

most horrifying thing is the implication that copies can be made of you, whole of you. there is no unique you (no uncopyable soul). this also means there can be any number of copies of you. also there is nothing else to you but what can be physically copied and thus controlled and manipulated by a computer, and made wholly dependent on it .


--
yes, at best, your copy(or copies) gets a superficial unreal existence(a literally soulless one), like in this episode.

no work, no illness, no struggle, bodiless sex with perfect unreal bodies(in fact why are there ugly people there?), no pain from bodily harm, parties all day, and it seems for some subtle reason tasteless cigarettes(and food too i suppose).
kind of like a drug induced hallucination forever.

it thinks it feels(as do any number of other copies) emotions, but since it(or computer) can turn that off that is also meaningless. ( i am using "it" on purpose, to make any responder justify calling computer code anything else)

for emotions to mean anything they should be uniquely individual. otherwise it is just like movie emotions. mere illusion. get it? perhaps you don't. sorry can't help if you don't.


--
and at worst, same technology, if realized, means something like cookies in white chritmas episode. after all why not do that? since they are just copies in a computer.


--
if humans are not unique souls with real struggles there is not meaning to them.

it may well be there is no soul and after life, for real, but at least we do not know that for certain.

if we do know for certain , logically our life must become meaningless. we can cry there is meaning, but there can't be logically; there are no consequences, everything is same, everything is arbitrary, everything loses value(not just moral values but any value), and everything is permitted(as ivan karamazov would say).



--
so your desperate self deception is justified, you just don't want to face the rational consequences of what this episode really says, though subtly than others.


--
btw there is a subtle homophobic aspect to this episode, implying whole thing is and can only be unreal and superficial .
ironic since some people in reviews seems to think the opposite, though others get it.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Why are there ugly people there? Really? The people there are YOUNGER versions of THEMSELVES, most likely when they WERE THAT AGE in the 1980's. They don't choose who they will be. It's THEM, just younger and healthier.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

1) I'm not sure you are, it might just be that Saturday nights are quite similar. If you only came to my city for 6 hours on a Saturday night a few times you might tihnk we were living in a loop, we aren't.

2) That's probably why people don't go until they're on the verge of death. You have a choice between being dead altogether, or carrying on in a way that may or may not really be you. I'm taking the gamble.

3) You don't feel anything when you're dead either. Why not go to San Junipero?

4) It's not that easy, you have to get through some kind of triple lock to get in. I totally agree about the existential questions by the way, but what have you got to lose?

-
Remember when I promised to kill you last?

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

4) heaven afterlife promised by church :) as i don't see them coming with more convincing facts about this I would prefer Junipero

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

That's very interesting point.

Would you get TWO afterlives in this case then? One "promised by church" and the one in San Junipero.

Wow, with those opportunities, I couldn't wait to die.

(BTW, I'm an atheist, so the church option I guess is something I don't believe in anyway).

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

actually after you get bored with junipero your can exit anyway and enjoy heaven brought to you by Church Co., though i guess they would declare junipero as sin, that those people won't go to heaven

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Would you get TWO afterlives in this case then? One "promised by church" and the one in San Junipero.

I wondered about that, too. If there is an afterlife, would your soul go to whatever afterlife is real (Heaven, Hell, etc.) while your consciousness (or copy of your consciousness) went to San Junipero? Or is your consciousness and your soul one and the same? Could you have it both ways, in other words? For instance, would Kelly both be reunited with her husband and daughter (her soul going to the religious afterlife) and be with Yorkie (consciousness going to San Junipero?) Or would you have to sacrifice one for the other?

If it's the first, that could create an interesting scenario where your soul goes to Hell (or whatever "bad place" equivalent) while your consciousness goes to SJ.

I personally don't believe in an afterlife, though I'm not an atheist, I'm an agnostic Wiccan, but I'm not sure I would want to go to San Junipero. I believe there's nothing after death, which to be honest sounds pretty appealing to me. I don't particularly like myself, so being me for an eternity, even if it's in some good place afterlife, whether Heaven or SJ, sounds... not so good.

Peter, is your social worker in that horse?

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Look at the alternatives - they were dying. Listen I'm in chronic pain following an accident. it may be permanent. I'm no spring chicken. From where I am, San Junipero doesn't look very bad, despite the drawbacks. At least the chronic pain will stop. And I think many dying people, wracked with pain, with no future, would choose this rather than (probably) nothing. It's hard to think of any sort of afterlife that doesn't present some problems.


Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

danavanell: Well said! I agree 100% and I am in a similar situation as you and have the same view point.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Having lost a relative this year I agree that knowing that someone you loved was going there and you knew where they were has a sense of relief about it.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?


Look at the alternatives - they were dying. Listen I'm in chronic pain following an accident. it may be permanent. I'm no spring chicken.


same. I'm chronically depressed after a divorce last year. San Junipero made me cry because I wish I could go there and find happiness again. Once my teenage boys move out i'm probably going to pull the plug, so to speak.


We all enjoy the maddness 'cuz we know we're gonna fade away

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Hope you're ok, please know that things get easier and you can be happy again. And I'm sure your boys would be lost without you, so stick around for them <3 They need looking after even after they leave home!xx

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

I have been through chronic depression (linked to chronic pain and a disability, among other things). Please see a physician. I had counseling and drug therapy (SNRI's worked wonderfully for me). You'll be astonished how differently the world feels, and how much more clearly you can see the road ahead and not feel like there's no way out.

And chronic depression may mean you need ongoing help... There's no "cure" for depression. But it is a medical condition that needs ongoing management to help you cope.

Please talk to a professional. I understand the space you're in, mentally, and I want you to know it's possible to make it out.

Member - DFW Film Critics Association
http://www.cinemalogue.com

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?


Look at the alternatives - they were dying. Listen I'm in chronic pain following an accident. it may be permanent. I'm no spring chicken. From where I am, San Junipero doesn't look very bad, despite the drawbacks. At least the chronic pain will stop. And I think many dying people, wracked with pain, with no future, would choose this rather than (probably) nothing. It's hard to think of any sort of afterlife that doesn't present some problems.



Like you I live with chronic pain every day, so I appreciate what you're and totally agree. My problem is I just have to sit and wonder what the next 20 or 30 will be like - will I be able to even walk unassisted (my condition involves deterioration of my spine). I could see why San Junipero would be a favorable choice for some, if I had an opportunity to live a pain-free life that I haven't had, I think would take it. As long as I knew there were an "out", I wouldn't want feel stuck there if it got to the point where everyday just became too repetitive.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Exactly. It's like virtual heaven and who doesn't love the idea of heaven?

I'm sorry you're in constant pain, that must be really hard..

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Cerebral palsy and at 19 I was on a second story patio deck that collapsed. Fractured my L5, then my L4 eventually went, and now I've been diagnosed at 42 with lumbar disc disease from my L1 to my L5-S1.

If I could choose to party for eternity with the one I love most for the rest of my life over a childhood of bullying for being different, an adulthood of chronic pain... why wouldn't I?

I wrote an editorial (link below) on this episode that further fleshes out my thoughts on this...


Member - DFW Film Critics Association
http://www.cinemalogue.com

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

the problem with Junipero is that it's maybe just copy of your mind and your genuine original mind will actually die unless they find easy how to move it out of body without killing it instead of creating copy, but in the end it's not like there is better option, I just hope there will be Junipero option in few decades i hopefully have if no accidents

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Granted there are only 13 episodes, but San Junipero is the best episode they've done. An episode doesn't have to have a sad ending or be dystopian. Just like not all twilight zones had to have a bad twist, some of the best ones didn't have that.

As for your points.

1. I get the impression there are endless cities to live in, and San Junipero as was said, was a 'party city'. I'm sure there are cities for other activities or behaviors.

2. It beats oblivion from death. It was pretty obvious to me that it was your consciousness in the machine.

3. Yeah, there is some darkness to that. People who are desperate to feel anything.

4. What is wrong with that? These are elderly people we are talking about. People who held down jobs, raised families, paid taxes. Now they get to rest on their laurels and enjoy their heydey. These aren't kids just starting out in life who abandon everything to join the matrix. These are people who contributed their whole lives and now get to relax.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

2) it's something which looks like your conscience but it might be just identical copy after the original failed to continue when your body was switched off, this is whole problem with teleportation and went works i never do it, so i hope they have some convincing arguments it's actually me regardless of my body and not just copy, read fine print before you sign with them

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Isn't that one of the main dramatic points to the whole episode - that this is not a "copy" of you? It is your real conscious being "uploaded" into a simulation.

You "pass over" when that happens. Ie the rest of your physical self dies.

If it was just a digital copy of your conscious, then so what? You're already dead.

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Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Sorry I can't reply individually, I'm posting from my phone.

I think I wouldn't choose San Junipero, much like the unseen husband. I think the actual horror is many people would choose to go to San Junipero.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

what's horrific about it? there are countless locations and activities you can do

yeah, it's shame if someone you loved didn't sign n up, but it's not like if you stop exist you will meet that person anyway

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

The two girls were only there for the "trial run" at first...only a few hours once a week probably at the same time. realized that when the nurse lets them enter for a few minutes and one of the girls says "wow I've never been here in the day time"

Were all going to die anyway and feel nothing most likely...F..that id choose SJ any day


I read this in a chola accent.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

This is where our future is going. I wrote a thesis on this very topic in college about 10 years ago, as a counter argument for the belief in God.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

That actually sounds very fascinating and I'd love to hear it, or at least the basic premise.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

I don't know. What happens to "you" if a server becomes corrupt or there's a bad patch in the system. The story was sweet, but the implications are terrible.

Dear Vorenus, I don't **** your wife.

-Erinne "Rome"

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Well, I guess those possibilities are not worse than those in "this" world.

What if an atom-bomb just suddenlty hits you?
What if the salad you buy puts you in a coma or makes you sick for a year?
What if someone crack your skull with a crow-bar just for the fun of it?

I think I can live with the chances of a "bad patch" despite regression-testing if technology has come this far.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

I also thought about that! What if someone hacked the system so that no one could unplug themselves and changed it from an eternity of fun to eternal torture? Turned Heaven into Hell, in other words? Sure, terrible things can and do happen in this life, but the bright side is that you'll eventually die (haha, yeah... that's what the bright side of life is to me), and unless you believe in Hell, your suffering will end. If someone hacked SJ and changed the settings, it wouldn't end. You'd be in a "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" situation.

I also wondered, if it's possible to make a virtual Heaven, surely it must be possible to make a virtual Hell. What if they used that in the criminal justice system? Sentence someone to life in prison or death AND however much time in virtual Hell, so that their sentence doesn't end even in death.

This was a beautiful episode, but the possibilities are horrifying.

Peter, is your social worker in that horse?

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Yeah the whole concept is pretty disturbing on every level and the existential issue is just the beginning of it

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Valid perspective. I think the episode raises a lot of interesting questions. To take the liberty of copy/pasting myself (orig http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2085059/board/nest/262570172?d=262594016#262594016):

Eternal, unanswerable questions. What is consciousness? What is the soul? Are they one and the same, or are they separate and distinct?

If a copy doesn't know it's a copy, and everything it experiences, including the full range of human emotions, feels like life, does it have a soul?

Is there such a thing as a soul? If not, does it matter whether a consciousness is live or Memorex?

Do androids dream of electric sheep?

This all is, in good part, what the episode is about. It is far from merely a simple love story. The implications are potentially deeply disturbing.

I thought it was a wise choice to avoid making this philosophical subtext into text. (Much. It does do that a little bit.) The viewer is left to ponder the matter afterward and come to one's own conclusions. We may wind up with very, very different interpretations of what ultimately happened there, or didn't happen. Not all of those interpretations are going to conclude that it was, in truth, a happy ending.

"Here, with a special report, is a midget in a bikini."

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Well, if that day is having a great burger with fries and a milk shake, then having some drinks and banging Chloe Bennet every night... sign me up!

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Well I think the issue people are having is the episode is about an hour long, and the "black mirrorness" is only really evident in the last quarter or so. The majority of the episode is a sweet love story and that is very different from the bleakness we've been exposed to so far.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

At least they have a choice: to stay at San Junipero or to die. We don't have such a privilege.

But for the sake of keeping the "black-mirrorness" of this episode they shouldn't have made Kelly change her decision.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?


At least they have a choice: to stay at San Junipero or to die.
Not exactly. They have to die in order to go live there. If it's living.

Is it?

"Here, with a special report, is a midget in a bikini."

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?


Is it?



It's better than nothing.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

How do you know though?


Less than forget. But more than begun.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

I would do it too, but I think it probably is nothing.

It's open to some interpretation. We can decide that this is a true upload of a living consciousness, that somehow that's possible, or we can go with what seems far more likely to me (and in my opinion was strongly implied by the appearance of the storage facility), which is that it's a digital copy.

I kind of like the idea of my digital copy living on and enjoying the good health I didn't have. I think she might accomplish some interesting things, once she was done partying for the first 300 years or so. So I'd be into this.

But she's not me.

"Here, with a special report, is a midget in a bikini."

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

Maybe you're not you from one thought to the next.

Yes, even if it's a copy, let a copy of me have a life, why not? I'm funny and good in bed.



Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?



"Here, with a special report, is a midget in a bikini."

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

I agree that San Junipero does seem horrifying. The monotony if nothing else.

Obvious spoilers:


We can decide that this is a true upload of a living consciousness, that somehow that's possible

I think the episode is telling us that it is, otherwise, what would be the point? Why would you (not a personal 'you' there) pay money to keep your digital copy happy? Talk about an utterly pointless expense. Why wouldn't you leave that money to loved ones or charity?

I think it is the only happy ending of the whole series - and that was the twist. Brilliant.

Re: How could San Junipero not be horrifying?

It depends on what "living" mean for you. Do you live when your brain isn't working anymore? Your muscles are still working, your intestines still digests food, but your consciousness doesn't exist anymore. Is it you or is it just a complex chemical reactions going on? (And by "you" I mean really "you", not some mental projection of someone, even someone really close — in case you are imagining someone close to you on life support).

That is a really complicated question. And that is why I thought Kelly should have not return to San Junipero. Because she clearly didn't believe in San Junipero, just like you didn't. And that should be a point of that episode: technology, even as great as San Junipero, doesn't guarantee you happiness.

But well, yeah, that's just my opinion, man :)

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