The Iceman : Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Making a movie about Richard Kuklinski is pointless in my opinion because we have the man on tape telling his own story in a manner more scary and hardhitting than any movie could be. Who agrees with me?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Because movies are entertaining. Many films based on real life people have documentaries such as Aileen Wuornos for example. But I certainly watched "Monster" with Charlize Theron and I bet you did too.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

True. But in the case of Richard Kuklinski, I just don't see how any movie can be as hardhitting as "The Iceman Tapes". That and the fact that I've heard mixed reviews about "The Iceman".

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Many movies get mixed reviews. The reviews on this is mostly positive and especially with the performances. Obviously it won't be exactly in detail of the interviews with Richard but it will be a nice in addition to…

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Where does one get "The Iceman Tapes"?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

There are two HBO documentaries and I think one more on Youtube.
Just google "iceman documentary".






I came, I saw, I laughed, I left.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

One does not simply "get The Iceman Tapes."

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Those might be lies, at least a movie is one big lie, and we all know about "based on true story" type stuff

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

You don't see any difference between a documentary and a dramatization?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I strongly doubt that he "can't see any difference" because he never said it was the same thing. He pretty clearly suggested that seeing The Iceman Tapes was better than watching the dramatization.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

"Monster" was tremendous…Shannon is a great Actor but I would've liked
the actor playing Kuklinski to have the threatening girth and body mass
of the real guy…though I guess Kuklinski wasn't always fat

http://www.imdb.com/board/20006718/">http://www.imdb.com/board/20006718/
in http://www.imdb.com/board/11375754/">http://www.imdb.com/board/11375754/

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I agree a thousand percent. No fictional film could possibly speak the vast volumes his way of telling his own story does. A lot of it comes across in the manner in which he talks about it.

Like his telling of the one guy he let pray for god to save him and then as he put it, "but god never showed up. And he never changed his circumstances." Chilling like nothing I've ever seen or heard anywhere.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

why would/should a existing documentary on this subject foreclose a movie (not a documentary)
Shannon is a great actor, so are Liota and Gandolfini. Im looking forward to see this movie and give a crap about the mixed reviews. Rewievs are mostly overrated. Everybody can be a critic. So why listen to them?
I like to see it for myself and let me decide wether it is good or not

"…but they hung him anyway."
"Hanged, Ami. Your father was not a tapestry."

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing


Shannon is a great actor, so are Liota and Gandolfini.


gandolfini? i agree with you but why do you include him on that list? he's not in the movie is he?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

[Rewievs are mostly overrated.]

And so are reviews of reviews.

Learn to spell, moron.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

The Iceman Tapes certainly give you an accurate account of a cold-blooded killer in his own words, but they don't offer any insight into how the people around him were affected - or not, as the case may be. I guess this film is trying to explore how RK carried out his killings for so long without his nearest and dearest finding out.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Because movies are fun and exciting?

————————
"Love means never having to say you're ugly." - the Abominable Dr. Phibes

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Only if they're done right.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

So you're saying this isn't done right?
Or are you saying that your original point is rather point-less?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I'll see the film anyway. Kuklinski is a NJ legend.

Come at the king, you best not miss.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

what he's saying is that this can't hold a candle to the actual iceman tapes and he's right.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

he's also saying a movie would be pointless and he's wrong. I usually do watch all representations of a story, I assumed many others do also. If there's only 1 thing that we get from adaptations it's a major one, some people have never even heard about some of the more obscure subjects before seeing the movies.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I'm not sure if a feature film is pointless, but I do agree that The Iceman documentaries on HBO are utterly fascinating. Kuklinski's quiet and remorseless demeanor, as he discusses the various ways, and reasons why, he killed people, is chilling. Then, just when you think, "Come on, this guy isn't too bad," the documentary interviewer will say something, or ask a question, that bothers Kuklinski and you see a rage surface on his face that makes you thankful he's dead.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

"the documentary interviewer will say something, or ask a question, that bothers Kuklinski and you see a rage surface on his face that makes you thankful he's dead."

To be pedantic, the interviewer intentionally provoked him with a subtle criticism. It was part of tactic to get him to introspect upon his rage. Very cleverly done. It is indeed a fascinating interview for anyone interested in seeing scary man's psychology delicately dissected.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I agree with you that it was the interviewer's tactic – and a successful one. Though I don't recall all of the particulars, what struck me, at the time I watched the HBO special, was how the criticisms were rather innocuous, certainly not anything that a normal person would be particularly bothered by, and yet Kuklinski seemed to struggle to hold in his rage.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

It's true, all the more reason I feel so sorry for him … as well as the hundreds of people and families whose lives he destroyed and ruined. Like the psychiatrist said, his parents made it virtually impossible to grow up to be a decent, caring, loving human being.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I have to agree…with a story like this you have to remember this guy did kill people..there were victims whose sufferings were real. The tapes of him being interviewed gave an interesting look at a man who was void of emotional restraint or regret, a movie would have to go some to portray that in any way more realistic and chilling as the man himself
given that …does the film add anything? I believe to do a movie on real murderers you have a duty to the victims to provide real merit and meaning in the film..(and most importantly to not glamorize or mytholigise dangerous and cruel killers)from what i have read of the reviews this hasnt been done in any meaningful way to justify the film…I'm torn because I watched the tapes but only want to watch the movie if it has truth and meaning to it and not just another gangster film made out of real characters


of my mind
'' I don't know what's in there, but it's weird and it's pissed off''

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

personally,i had the greatest enthusiasm for this film,especially because shannon was playing the lead(and liotta was playing roy de meo). but it turned out to be a wasted opportunity. and who's bright idea was it to turn kuklinski into some kind of anti hero? so,for anyone who's really interested in kuklinski,by all means see the film for postherity,but i think you'll find you're better off watching the iceman tapes.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Wow, that doesn't make much sense. It's called entertainment. I know what you're trying to get at.. but I have seen every single special on RK, even read the book "The Ice Man: Confessions of a Mafia Contract Killer" (got it from Amazon for $0.01 plus 3.99 shipping [4 bucks total]..they got tons of copies for a penny, just click where it says paperback "used from" in the little box}

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

It's only entertaining if it's done right and from what I hear, the reviews for this movie have mostly been luke warm at best. Besides, there's nothing more powerful than to hear the man tell his own story in his own words and that is what I was driving at. Thank you for your comment though, always appreciated.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

So, this means you never watch movies about anything that could be based on real-life events? In that case, you must have watched 10 movies in your entire life! All by Disney!!

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Have you seen the original Iceman Tapes? If you haven't, I suggest you do since they are available on Youtube. All you have to do is type in Richard Kuklinski. Watch those and then tell me if any movie could measure up to that. Oh, and for the record, I just like to say that I've seen my fair share of movies, and trust me, many of them were not the Disney type! LOL

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

agreed about the movie being disappointing…Shannon was amazing but the film was weak…tried to make him sympathetic and someone to root for even as they show him murdering countless people (an innocent homeless person at one point) so you're stuck watching instead of feeling one way or the other about the guy…they made Liotta's character a total pushover basically even though the real life guy was terrifying and a brutal murderer as well…idk…just had my issues with it…worth a watch but might as well just watch the documentary though I feel like a lot of what Kuklinski says is exaggerated or complete BS (not that he isn't a cold blooded murderer…this is true)

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I once saw a documentary about Goodfellas where Henry Hill said that the violence was toned down compared to some of the things that really happened and then it cut to Martin Scorsese saying "I wouldn't want to know about some of the things they did!"

Does this mean there's no point watching Goodfellas? Or why watch Schindler's List when you can do your own research on the holocaust and come across loads of much more disturbing things?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

A worthy point. With Goodfellas, Martin Scorsese was able to incorporate Henry Hill's words through the narration of Ray Liotta, so we were able to get Henry Hill to tell his own story in his own words which, to the best of my knowledge, had not be done on film prior to Goodfellas. Where as with Kuklinski, we already had him telling his own story in his own words on film, something that I don't believe this movie was going to do as far as the narration form of Goodfellas. To hear Kuklinski tell his own story is nothing short of frightening and that's why I wasn't sure any movie could measure up to it and while I have not had the chance to see the movie myself, the comments about it have not been that impressive, overall anyway. And as far as Schindler's List, well, that's a bit different as far as genocide vs. gangsters.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing


With Goodfellas, Martin Scorsese was able to incorporate Henry Hill's words through the narration of Ray Liotta, so we were able to get Henry Hill to tell his own story in his own words which, to the best of my knowledge, had not be done on film prior to Goodfellas.


No, Henry Hill did not write the script for Goodfellas, I doubt those are his words at all. The main purpose of a film like Goodfellas is to tell a cinematic story based on real events, it's not really required to be a documentary that shows everything as it happened, some things have to be simplified and omitted in order for the narrative to work. The same is probably true of The Iceman.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

The HBO documentaries are far more insightful than this film, it's a big, awfully constructed let down.

http://www.imdb.com/board/11491044/reviews-25">http://www.imdb.com/board/11491044/reviews-25

http://www.hawkensian.com/">http://www.hawkensian.com/

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I agree with you. The two HBO interviews frightened the living HELL out of me! To this day some of the most intense and disturbing things I've seen (or more literally heard) on film. A movie could have been done and I was in fact working on it as an independent film-maker for YEARS but didn't get my chance before this cheap knock off came out! I say that not having seen the actual film yet but I have seen the previews and I know the highly dubious "quality" of Mr. Shannon and I already know what to expect. My choice for the role was of course James Gandolfini and it would have earned him an Oscar, but of course now even that is an unfilled dream since his un-timely passing, God rest his soul. So in the end it seems the closest thing we WILL ever get to the true horror of these events is in the original Iceman Interviews films, and I am fine with that :)

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Amen to that!

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

so you can see the contrived, shoehorned romance storyline of course !

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Totally agree.

I watched the documentary a few weeks ago, which was very insightful.(had no idea who he was) Then, when I came across the movie i was really excited to see it. Boy was I wrong.

I actually thought it was quite boring and didn't really get to know who he was or his story.

If you want to learn anything about Richard Kuklinski, skip the movie and just watch the Doco

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

the movie is a total let down. completely wrong and/or fabricated… only a few of the names are correct, everything else fake. what a stupid move by hollywood. they really dropped the ball AGAIN. could have been a really good watch if they stuck with the facts…

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Why not watch both?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

If you have to ask, you obviously don't "get" movies.

Film is an artform. The number one reason to watch any film is to experience a work in that artform. It's not to educate yourself about something other than film or anything like that. Watch film for film's sake. If you're not interested in that then fnck off and do something else with your time. Some of us like films because we like the artform. Listening to endless bitching from folks who aren't interested in film for film's sake gets tiresome to those of us who love film.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Hey genius, it's only art if it's done right and from what I hear, the film is luke warm at best! If the this film was done right, say directed by someone like Martin Scorsese, or if we didn't have the iceman on film telling his own story, then it would be different. That's the point I was getting at which you cleary missed!

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

There's no such thing as "bad art" in your view, or is it that you'd say that "bad art" is somehow "done right"?

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Okay, I admit, bad art does exist but if its bad, why waste your time? Unless of course it's one of those it's so bad it's good kind of thing.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

You wouldn't know if you think it's bad until you watch it though. The reason to watch it would be that you enjoy films for film's sake–you like the artform.

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

I hear ya. I was gonna watch Saving Private Ryan the other day but then I figured why bother and watched a WWII documentary instead.

What are words for when no one listens anymore

Re: Why Watch This When You Can See The Real Thing

Precisely, the Iceman tapes, are so much better than this movie.Peace
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