Doctor Who : What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

Thought it would be an interesting discussion.

Personally, I think the balance between sticking to the rules of the main series while also being its own thing is probably a difficult one to nail down.

Additionally a character may work perfectly as a side-character and turn out to be less so when they're expected to lead an entire show . Class went with an entirely new group of people, and perhaps this worked against this as well? Would it have been better if they were introduced before?

Torchwood, depending on who you ask, either did or did not succeed. I don't think it was perfect, far from, but I got a lot of entertainment out of it at least. Still, it was very much a rollercoaster of what worked and did not, but did tie back into the main show nicely.

People have suggested a Paternoster gang spin off (though I guess it's a little too late now) and Unit has been brought up a few times as well. I think the latter could work well.

Another thing that might be relevant could be that a spin-off seems to be created for the sake of reaching a new audience (instead of the very same one as the main show), which might force it to be something it doesn't need to be.


As All Books Claim Eternity Has Many Universes

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


Additionally a character may work perfectly as a side-character and turn out to be less so when they're expected to lead an entire show . Class went with an entirely new group of people, and perhaps this worked against this as well? Would it have been better if they were introduced before?



Class didn't work because it was racist, had dreadful acting, cliched and unoriginal stories, and was a third rate rip off of Buffy.

Other spin off's meanwhile that have worked Angel, Xena and Frasier I think found a right balance of being the same type of show but offering something different like you say.

Xena was a show about greek gods, monsters and had the same surrealist sense of humour as Hercules. It was set in the same unique world viewers loved from Hercules, but at the same time its heroes were two women, its stories were darker and it was more emotional thus it offered something new.

Angel similarly was another show about Vampires and Demons and prophecies and again was clearly set in the same world people loved as Buffy, same types of monsters, conflicts etc. However again its main hero was a guy, it was set in a different city, it was darker, it was more morally grey with the heroes not always winning and it was more about redemption than the underdog always coming out on top.

Frasier meanwhile had the same type of humour as Cheers. Both Frasier and Cheers love having a clash between the blue collar, simple working class, sports fans and the snobby, well off, taste for the finer things upper class.

Diane, Lilith and Frasier against the rest of the bar in Cheers, Frasier, Niles against their dad in Frasier.

Both Frasier and Cheers also love comedies about big misunderstandings, farces, and dragging a will they, won't they storyline out for years, Sam and Diane, Niles and Daphne.

Again however Frasier was in a different city, was very much about someones home life and their family. In this respect it was the opposite of Cheers which is all about your social life and friends. Also its main character was the opposite to Cheers. Sam was a laid back, womanizer, whose career as a minor celeb was over. Frasier was a sensitive, tormented, intellectual desperate to find the one, whose career as a minor celeb was very successful.

Thus again Frasier was similar enough to Cheers to pull in its viewers, but it didn't just feel like a lazy rehash, and the fact that it was different allowed it to win round new people who might not have cared for Cheers, just like Xena with Hercules and Angel with Buffy.

Of course the fact that Frasier, Xena and Angel weren't racist probably helped them to succeed unlike Class too.

Personally I think a Romana spin off might work. It would be enough like DW to bring in the same audience, but as her character is different you might be able to do something new with her. Also the fact that she is a woman too would allow a Xena/Hercules Angel/Buffy dynamic too.

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

I would say that Torchwood was a success based on lasting 4 seasons, and for the younger set, Sarah Jane lasted quite a while too, but I can't see another series of a Romana, doing what the Doctor does, Mayhaps a series using Romana on Gallifrey as some sort of cop or detective, using Gallifrey as the pull
Cheers/ Fraser was probably one of the most well know, although All In The Family / The Jeffersons came before that

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


Cheers/ Fraser was probably one of the most well know, although All In The Family / The Jeffersons came before that


Never seen The Jeffersons or All in the Family. I did love Frasier. IMO it was the best spin off ever made. It easily holds up as its own show. You don't need to have seen Cheers to watch it. Xena and Angel were good spin offs but I feel you need to watch the other shows, Hercules and Buffy to really get the full experience, though to be fair to them that's because they ran concurrently with the parent show, whilst Frasier was really more of a sequel.

Daria the animated spin off from Beavis and Butthead was another successful spin off, and it was quite unique in that it wasn't even remotely like the parent show.


I would say that Torchwood was a success based on lasting 4 seasons, and for the younger set, Sarah Jane lasted quite a while too


Agreed to some extent. Its also worth mentioning that both only came to an end because of outside factors. Torchwood finished because RTD's husband had brain cancer and he had to retire for a few years to look after him, whilst obviously the SJA finished because of Lis Sladen's tragic and untimely passing.

Still I don't think you can really compare them to the most successful spin offs as ultimately nowadays I don't know if you'd get anyone who mentions them unless its in relation to DW. Frasier, the Simpsons, Daria and Xena most people probably wouldn't be aware that they are spin offs. Angel meanwhile is tied to Buffy, but even then I'd say it has more of its own identity than Sarah Jane or Torchwood.

Really Torchwood is known as the "edgy" DW spin off first and foremost. Though you could argue that as DW is so vast and long running no spin off could escape its shadow. Still I'd rate Torchwood on the level of the Cleveland Show. Successful at the time, but doesn't really hold up as its own thing.


but I can't see another series of a Romana, doing what the Doctor does, Mayhaps a series using Romana on Gallifrey as some sort of cop or detective, using Gallifrey as the pull


There are lots of things you could do with Romana. I don't think having her explore the universe would be off the cards. Yes on paper it would sound the same, but again so does Angel and Xena. "oh just have Angel kill Vampires like Buffy, Xena fight gods, the SAME god even Ares as Hercules" but they were both different shows. You'd have to try and make her stand out from the Doctor. One of her on Gallifrey might be interesting too.

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


Still I don't think you can really compare them to the most successful spin offs as ultimately nowadays I don't know if you'd get anyone who mentions them unless its in relation to DW. Frasier, the Simpsons, Daria and Xena most people probably wouldn't be aware that they are spin offs. Angel meanwhile is tied to Buffy, but even then I'd say it has more of its own identity than Sarah Jane or Torchwood.


I actually had no idea that they were spin-offs, until a few months ago when I was reading some article on Better Call Saul (a Breaking Bad spin-off) which mentioned some other successful spin-offs. You're right that neither Torchwood nor SJA really have an identity beyond being part of the DW lore. I doubt many people will watch Torchwood without at least knowing it's a Doctor Who spin-off.

I mentioned Better Call Saul, and I doubt it can ever shake off Breaking Bad's legacy either, but it's still a very good show. It has problems, mainly trying to maintain a balance between being its own show and throwing copious amounts of BrBa easter eggs in there, which I'm afraid will be a bit too much eventually - meaning that the show is basically operating as just a fun memory lane for Breaking Bad fans. I'm one (a BrBa fan, that is) and I'll happily walk that lane, but in the end it might prevent the show from being considered truly great on its own merit. So yes, I think this is a common problem with spin-offs, how to make a show that can stand on its own but is also similar enough to the parent show to get its fans on board.


Do you even know what honor is?
- A horse.

13 + 1 Story Ideas – Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?



I can't see another series of a Romana, doing what the Doctor does, Mayhaps a series using Romana on Gallifrey as some sort of cop or detective, using Gallifrey as the pull.

There are lots of things you could do with Romana. I don't think having her explore the universe would be off the cards.



Here are 13 Romana Story ideas, in no particular order, except BG is necessarily last; first bunch only are bound to and based on past TV continuity.

Bound
Two Detective stories investigating
- the disappearance of one Theta Sigma and his grand-daughter some years ago;
- the misuse of the Matrix during the the Fourth Doctor story The Deadly Assassin (88) and the Sixth Doctor-Valeyard trial (143, 143d).

When Gallifrey was moved to the far reaches of Time, it traversed E-Space. Cat-Nine*, a mechanical companion, puts in an appearance.

A figure from the Key to Time experience (101, 103) enters her purview, as does the Doctor's Daughter, who has mistakenly calculated that she, the Daughter, is a segment in the Key to Time. They two or 3 or 4 team up for an unscheduled Off-World Key to Time foray using the Daughter's secondary transport (or the same's modified transport).

The Black Guardian seeks to move, and does move, on to yet higher office, thereby vacating the post, to which she is promoted, while Missy is passed over; throughout the entire process, she remains, or tries to remain, true to her good self. The name of the Inquisitor (143) and that of one of the Sisterhood of Karn are put forward for White Guardian.

She damages the tanks of some Daleks with a modified version of the Movellan virus, with the result that her side can manoeuvre the tanks against the will of the mutant occupant; she gets some of those Daleks unaffected by the virus addicted to Vraxoin. She sends the data to a dropbox that she knows a former acquaintance will one day access and use.

A Sontaran (88) relic comes to life, gets a hold on things, signals more Sontarans to come in, which they do, a Rutan Host follows in their wake. Several years after these events, Romana, Rodan, and Leela discover to their shame that both enemies became proficient in time-travel and fought a limited number of battles over many millenia because of their failure during this dual invasion.

A Doctor's Daughter story that does not feature Romana until the latter stages; the former starts growing a Tardis outside of normal laboratory conditions.

I would like to invent a War Doctor - Romana - on Gallifrey Story idea, but I don't feel like it just now. Maybe next week.

-

unBound
A cure for blindness is discovered, but some of the blind don't want to be cured, as they have access to the worlds others normally don't see.

While overseeing the cleaning up of the rubble after the Dalek Attack on Arcadia, an artefact is discovered that has no importance nor interest nor any story-telling opportunites whatsoever. (There has to be at least one dud.) Spiders are mistakenly discovered deep inside Gallifrey. False Alarm. (Insert any love interest of Romana, or any pregnancy of the Doctor's Daughter here.)

Stem Cell research** offers the possibility of growing an organ that manipulates Time, like hands manipulate tools. Time Lords and Gallifreyans discuss what to do, but only for a short time. Then they fight.

Her flying personal transport (PFT) is stolen and returned a few days later undaamged, more-or-less untouched even. But it possesses one new capability: it can go through the glass of the dome without damage to either, save that minor electrical charge appears in two places. The PFT, however, really is untouched; no new capability was indeed added to it.

Ambassadors start coming and asking Pres. Romana for access to the Streamer. The key element of the Streamer installation is a machine that looks eeriely like a Weaver's Loom with warp and woof and wear and wull, ie. four dimensions. The Ambassadors are seeking changes to their and their enemies' Time Streams.

-

* Because the BBC do not own rights to K-9.
** Australian of the Year 2017 comes from the Stem Cell Research Zone.

-

I think about Romana quite often, but that is about all I can come up with, save one, aw Gee. Since the essential problem with Spin-Offs is that the Doctor is relegated to a minor role, and since if they were going to do a Romana story they would have done it already, Romana stories will never get produced for TV. But one or 2 of the story ideas might be good for fan fiction.

Re: 13 + 1 Story Ideas – Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


I think about Romana quite often, but that is about all I can come up with, save one, aw Gee. Since the essential problem with Spin-Offs is that the Doctor is relegated to a minor role, and since if they were going to do a Romana story they would have done it already, Romana stories will never get produced for TV. But one or 2 of the story ideas might be good for fan fiction.


Interesting post. I agree I can't imagine the BBC actually thinking Romana could have commercial potential, but still I say that a Romana spin off would work better than a racist spin off in a school like Class LOL.

Re: 13 + 1 Story Ideas – Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

I would give my left heart for a Romana spinoff!

A much better idea than making The Doctor a chick IMHO!

Re: 13 + 1 Story Ideas – Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


I would give my left heart for a Romana spinoff!

A much better idea than making The Doctor a chick IMHO!



Agreed, but then again a female Doctor is the worst idea in the history of bad ideas! Still lets not get side tracked onto this again.

Romana IMO is a strong enough character to exist outside of the Doctor.

Frasier when you watch Cheers back, its obvious that he could have sustained his own show. There are so many scenes even episodes where he is away from the gang and just with Lilith. You can see how actually he didn't need the rest of them.

IMO Romana is a character like that.

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

Very interesting topic.

My first thought is to look outside the SF/fantasy genre.

In the 1970s it wasn't unusual to have spinoffs from comedies. Man About the House had two - Robin's Nest and George & Mildred. The approach here was to continue showing familiar characters in comedy situations. There were few if any references to the parent series. Indeed, the ongoing story was much less important than getting laughs.

On The Buses spawned Don't Drink the Water. Former inspector Blake often referred to his time on the buses but otherwise it was just him getting into comedy situations. It was pretty terrible, as I recall, but On The Buses had been going downhill by then.

Porridge spawned Going Straight but this was more of a sequel than a spinoff. There was quite a strong ongoing narrative that linked both series.

It wasn't unusual to have police/detective shows spinoff. Individual episodes were much more important than arcs.

By the 1990s, up to today, spinoffs have been more problematic. Friends (itself a spinoff of Mad About You - one could argue) became very narrative-heavy. The spinoff, Joey, featured the one character whose further adventures we weren't interested in - he was there for the laughs, not the story.

Babylon 5 had popularised the idea of arcs in science fiction to the extent that you could freeze the frame while someone's reading a newspaper, and you could read news items that would be significant later. It gave a wonderful feel of a lived-in universe. However, due to production decisions, it had lost its momentum by the final season, and the spinoff series, Crusade, was unmemorable.

When Virgin lost the right to publish Doctor Who novels, they carried on with the character Bernice Summerfield. Die-hard fans stuck with the range, and I remember reading one or two that were actually good (Kate Orman's Walking to Babylon springs to mind) but they were constrained by the "rules" of Doctor Who but without the freedom of having a TARDIS. In short, unless you were utterly in love with the character of Bernice, you were better off reading a non-series science fiction novel.

I think the main problem with Doctor Who is that it does everything every few years. Maybe every ten years. I believe the "correct" way to watch it is from age 10 to 12, then watch it casually with your children or nephews and nieces - take vicarious pleasure in their pleasure, but note that it's not as good as it was in your day. We fans are doing it wrong because we're obsessives.

Whether this is true or not, the fact remains that everyone who stuck with it since 2005 has seen pretty much everything it's got to offer - he's saved the world countless times, escaped certain death countless times, seen the Daleks wiped out only to discover they haven't been, had a variety of companions, met historical characters and done some fannish celebrating.

A spinoff is likely to inherit the problems of Who-fatigue, while like in the Bernice books we don't have the freedom of the TARDIS. Add to that the really poor writing, and it's no surprise that Class is unloveable.

This whirlpool's got such seductive furniture
It's so pleasant being drowned

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

That's a very interesting point about who-fatigue and the fact that the show tends to retread the same paths. A spin off probably needs to be unique enough in its own way in order to not feel like 'more of the same', but then there's a limit to how much it can depart from DW until the audience starts wondering 'why have it be a spin off at all?'.

I think what might be interesting is several one off series. What about a show that focuses each episode on a different side character, show what happened to them after? Like a Black Mirror type of anthology, but for Who.


As All Books Claim Eternity Has Many Universes

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

Class was just terrible, spinoff off or not.

I loved most of Torchwood, especially season three.

Overall Torchwood was a great show, not really too hard to pull off a character like Captain Jack IMHO!

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


A spin off probably needs to be unique enough in its own way in order to not feel like 'more of the same', but then there's a limit to how much it can depart from DW until the audience starts wondering 'why have it be a spin off at all?'.

Agreed.

There's the related problem of the baggage. In a brand new show, we can have the thrill of discovering aliens exist, finding out that time travel is possible and so on. But a Doctor Who spinoff is set in a milieu where we already know these things. It removes a lot of the exploratory aspect that makes science fiction so interesting.


I think what might be interesting is several one off series. What about a show that focuses each episode on a different side character, show what happened to them after? Like a Black Mirror type of anthology, but for Who.

My first reaction was that this is a brilliant idea. On reflection well, it could work, but it still has the problems already discussed.

Suppose they do one with Peter Purves as an old man reflecting on his successes and failures during his time on the Savages planet. Fans are going to be thrilled to see him reprise the role, but to everybody else it might as well be a standalone story about some guy who somehow found himself ruling another planet. (Of course the twist could be that Steven Taylor was replaced somehow with Morton Dill)

Or a more recent story might be about Rory's dad, or Adam going around with that thing in his forehead, or Rose's hitherto unmentioned twin sister But the problem here is that there aren't any nagging, unanswered questions that need an episode to answer. I often didn't like the resolutions (especially in the RTD era) but I have to admit they were resolved.

I've only seen a few episodes of Black Mirror so far, so I'm no expert, but what I've seen has been very good, and I doubt they'd be improved by being tied in to an established continuity. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

This whirlpool's got such seductive furniture
It's so pleasant being drowned

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

I liked the third season of Torchwood and the Sarah Jane Adventures (never saw Class) but as IngloriousSister said, none of these would interest anyone who aren't already fans of Doctor Who. I'm not sure DW is capable of spawning an independently popular series like The Jeffersons (as raventhom brought up) or Frasier (as burun said) because there's no setup for the companions, unless one goes through a particularly interesting character-based arc, to continue to pique our interest. Maybe Clara and Me, but another problem is you have to have a showrunner who's not a jerk and spectacular writing.

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Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


There first has to be a demand, or need to be pulled-off. There isn't one.



keeps alive the weak, the stupid, the lazy that breed and multiply, weakening the human race

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?


There first has to be a demand, or need to be pulled-off. There isn't one.

16 words to sum it up. I envy you your succinctness!

This whirlpool's got such seductive furniture
It's so pleasant being drowned

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

Is it true that Billie and David lobbied for a series of the two of them finding what it's like being a married couple?

Re: What makes spin-offs so hard to pull off?

One issue is how the spin off effects doctor who. For example if torchwood miracle day was set in the current modern time it aired as many believed and Rory and Amy where from that same time then we have the issue that Rory and Amy should have been around during miracle day but it's never mentioned and the doctor seems to have never heard of it.

This isn't really a problem when doing something on a much smaller scale
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