The Haunting : Lesbian Subplot
Re: Lesbian Subplot
One of the few films that needed to be remade? Wow! I could think of ten thousand more than The Haunting, which is considered a classic of the genre. Couldn't disagree more but then you liked the novel which I was underwhelmed by. Especially the professor's wife. I consider the screenplay a big improvement on the novel's story.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
One of the few films that needed to be remade? Wow! I could think of ten thousand more than The Haunting
Let me amend that, and be more specific & accurate. :) I consider it one of the few film adaptations of favorite novels of mine that could potentially be a great deal better if remade well. This doesn't mean it was bad the first time.
(And there may be more than a few such films, depending on how one defines 'few' of course.)
which is considered a classic of the genre.
Yes, I know what it's considered. But I was speaking of my own thoughts. I didn't dislike it by any means; it simply doesn't sparkle in the very TOP tier of my personal ghostly film firmament. The second tier, yes.
And I'm well aware that I'm in a minority with my 7-out-of-10 rating for it, or at least, in a minority amongst folks who usually love the same types of ghostly films I like (The Innocents, The Others, The Orphanage, etc.).
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I don't come from hell. I came from the forest.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Theo is definitely a lesbian and very attracted to Nell in the film as well as the book.
But the film softened a lot of Theo's rough edges. In the book she is quite vindictive and brags about how she likes to ruin things.
Nell is attracted to both Luke and Theo in the novel. And the confusion it causes her doesn't help her mental instability problems. Nell rejects Theo at first for Luke. Which causes Nell to flirt with Luke and steal him away from Nell.
A lot of the symbolism in the book associates Theo with jealousy. Also there is quite a few references to Theo trying to take Nell's place (she wears quite a few of Nell's clothes). Nell herself is symbolically compared to the first Mrs. Crain and Luke with Mr. Crain.
The film left out this love triangle in favor of having Nell attracted to Dr. Montague.
But the film softened a lot of Theo's rough edges. In the book she is quite vindictive and brags about how she likes to ruin things.
Nell is attracted to both Luke and Theo in the novel. And the confusion it causes her doesn't help her mental instability problems. Nell rejects Theo at first for Luke. Which causes Nell to flirt with Luke and steal him away from Nell.
A lot of the symbolism in the book associates Theo with jealousy. Also there is quite a few references to Theo trying to take Nell's place (she wears quite a few of Nell's clothes). Nell herself is symbolically compared to the first Mrs. Crain and Luke with Mr. Crain.
The film left out this love triangle in favor of having Nell attracted to Dr. Montague.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I think you meant to write, "Which causes Theo to flirt with Luke and steal him away from Nell."
Yes, there are some hints that Theo may be bisexual. But it is clear that Nell's approach (flirtation?) with Luke is very awkward and ends rather badly. She winds up thinking (in the novel), ". . .[he] is the only man I have ever sat and talked to alone, and I am impatient. He is simply not very interesting."
For her part, Theo loses interest in Nell by the end of the first week. She says to Nell, "You have your life back home, I have my life. When the summer is over, we go back. . .Hill House is not forever, you know."
Yes, there are some hints that Theo may be bisexual. But it is clear that Nell's approach (flirtation?) with Luke is very awkward and ends rather badly. She winds up thinking (in the novel), ". . .[he] is the only man I have ever sat and talked to alone, and I am impatient. He is simply not very interesting."
For her part, Theo loses interest in Nell by the end of the first week. She says to Nell, "You have your life back home, I have my life. When the summer is over, we go back. . .Hill House is not forever, you know."
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Someone previously mentioned the scene where Luke tries to put the moves on Theo in the solarium and she snaps at him. More telling are the following lines when Dr. Markway asks "What's going on?" Luke gets a knowing look on his face and answers, "More than meets the eye."
Also later on when Nell calls Theo an "unnatural thing" and one of "nature's mistakes".
"If work was a good thing the rich would have it all and not let you do it.
Elmore Leonard (1925-)
Also later on when Nell calls Theo an "unnatural thing" and one of "nature's mistakes".
"If work was a good thing the rich would have it all and not let you do it.
Elmore Leonard (1925-)
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Not to beat this topic to death, but there are two more rather obvious "coded" details that hint at Theo's lesbianism that I did not see mentioned in any of the dozens of posts on this thread. First is her nickname (Theo), which is typically a man's name. Second, she is seen wearing pants in several scenes. While it was not unheard of in 1963 for women to wear pants, I believe this was meant as just another subtle clue as to her sexuality. I could be reading in too much because I was already aware of the lesbian "subplot" before I watched the movie, but I think not. There are a number of 1960s sexploitation movies, e.g., Satan in High Heels (1962) where "woman in pants" is quite obvious coding for "lesbian" (the Grayson Hall character in SiHH).
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I think she wears culottes, doesn't she? Maybe I'm wrong.
In the DVD commentary, Robert Wise and Clare Bloom say that they never intended her character to be a lesbian. And that they never discussed it. I think it's clear to the contrary and they were just being coy. Or else they didn't discuss it and it was written that way without discussion.
But to me, it's clear.
Another two moments that I noticed but didn't see mentioned on this thread:
- On the first night, Theo says to Nell that she's been thinking of changing her hair. And tries to get into Nell's room to help her with it. Nell gets uncomfortable and refuses.
- When Markway suggests that they share the room. Nell is visibly hesitant and Theo says that they'll be like "sisters" with a twinkle in her eye.
In the DVD commentary, Robert Wise and Clare Bloom say that they never intended her character to be a lesbian. And that they never discussed it. I think it's clear to the contrary and they were just being coy. Or else they didn't discuss it and it was written that way without discussion.
But to me, it's clear.
Another two moments that I noticed but didn't see mentioned on this thread:
- On the first night, Theo says to Nell that she's been thinking of changing her hair. And tries to get into Nell's room to help her with it. Nell gets uncomfortable and refuses.
- When Markway suggests that they share the room. Nell is visibly hesitant and Theo says that they'll be like "sisters" with a twinkle in her eye.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Hmmm I've listened to the DVD commentary and I don't recall Wise and Bloom saying they never intended the character to be lesbian. They both seemed to be pretty matter of fact about Theo's lesbianism. Bloom says she was intrigued to play a woman who was interested in other women. I think it's pretty clear from what is mentioned in the commentary that the character was supposed to be lesbian. Wise filmed a scene that wasn't put in the final film, a prologue bit showing a breakup between Theo and her female "roommate" in which Theo angrily writes "I hate you" on a mirror.
I believe Theo wore "regular" pants/slacks, but like all her wardrobe it was stylish stuff by hip designer Mary Quant. I'm pretty sure it came down to her shoes.
I believe Theo wore "regular" pants/slacks, but like all her wardrobe it was stylish stuff by hip designer Mary Quant. I'm pretty sure it came down to her shoes.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
She's definitely supposed to be a lesbian as she was in the novel but its very subtle - I think anything really overt would have possibly run into censorship problems. This would have been clearer in the deleted scene. Her jealously when Nell is attarcted to Markway, her reaction to Luke grabbing her necklace ("More than meets the eye" he says looking at Nell) and Nell's 'unnatural' comment - which could be read as commenting on Theo's ESP abilities but clearly isn't meant to be from Theo's reaction.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
She's definitely supposed to be a lesbian as she was in the novel but its very subtle - I think anything really overt would have possibly run into censorship problems
Let's see. Jackson apparently was a writer who focused greatly on women's issues of her day which was the mores of 50's. She seemed to have a great interest in how women handled themselves in their lives especially focuing on their "identity" and of course we get plenty of that in the film and apparently the lesbian (sexuality) aspect is a big hit! But I think fundamentally Jackson goes way beyond that to give us a take of really the horror that sometimes can occur in reality and it probably occurs mostly in how we look at our ourselves. Her houses are entrapments and give rise to paranoia, evil and identity problems. Really the film is a masterpiece of psych horror and it came out of experiencing the 50's!
Let's see. Jackson apparently was a writer who focused greatly on women's issues of her day which was the mores of 50's. She seemed to have a great interest in how women handled themselves in their lives especially focuing on their "identity" and of course we get plenty of that in the film and apparently the lesbian (sexuality) aspect is a big hit! But I think fundamentally Jackson goes way beyond that to give us a take of really the horror that sometimes can occur in reality and it probably occurs mostly in how we look at our ourselves. Her houses are entrapments and give rise to paranoia, evil and identity problems. Really the film is a masterpiece of psych horror and it came out of experiencing the 50's!
Re: Lesbian Subplot
It also may have come out of her life experiences, beliefs and medical/psychological issues!
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Surefiction is really in a way based on real life. No doubt Jackson went through some pretty bad stuff herself. The producers I think did a great job with her work and had an understanding of it.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
This is quite an interesting discussion. I agree with what's been said about the the lesbian/bisexual issue being handled subtly and ambiguosly in the 1963 version. Viewers are never told anything outright, just as we never actually see what haunts Hill House.
In both cases we're left to draw our own conclusions. I much prefer this to the kind of blatant approach where viewers are clobbered with explicit dialog/visual effects to make sure that everyone knows exactly what's happening.
I've noticed a few small things in The Haunting that could hint at Theo's sexual orientation, and I don't believe they've been mentioned yet (my apologies if they have).
*Spoilers*
After Nell and Theo first meet Dr. Markway, we see the three of them visit the "purple parlor" as they're on the way to dinner. Theo is sitting in a chair and Nell is standing by Dr. Markway, who's commenting on the house's "wrong" angles.
When Nell says that all of these angles could cause the house to be one big distortion, Markway is pleased and tells her she catches on fast. Theo, still in the chair and looking none too happy, says she's hungry and wants to go. As they're leaving, she glares at Markway, then at Nell.
The next morning, Markway and Nell are at breakfast and are joined by Theo. As Theo is getting coffee from the sideboard, her back is to Nell. When she hears Nell calls Markway "John" for the first time, she turns around and gives Nell a nasty look.
I get the impression that Theo could be jealous of the rapport she sees between Markway and Nell.
A short time later, some writing that includes Nell's name is discovered on the wall outside the dining room. Nell finds this extremely upsettting. Theo then starts taunting her about it and Nell becomes angry.
Markway says Theo has done this so Nell will stop being afraid, but I wonder if it could be payback for the attraction between Nell and Markway that Theo has perceived.
Later, Theo and Nell are in Nell's room sipping brandy, even though Nell has told everyone she doesn't drink. Theo tells Nell: "By the time I'm through with you, you'll be a different person."
Towards the end of the same scene, Nell and Theo get into a brief altercation as they're both sitting in bed. Nell lies down and says she never wants to leave Hill House. Theo, who's still sitting, leans over towards Nell in a way that could suggest she's about to make a move on Nell. This is interrupted when Markway calls to them from the hall.
It's possible that I'm reading too much into these things, but I find them interesting nonetheless.
BTW, I haven't read the novel but I've just watched the 1999 remake, which I found to be as subtle as a train wreck. It's like they hired some big names, had everyone do a bunch of dumb/illogical things, threw in some CGI and a couple of "gotchas," and thought they'd have a blockbuster. As far as I'm concerned, there's no comparison between whatever *that* was and the 1963 version.
In both cases we're left to draw our own conclusions. I much prefer this to the kind of blatant approach where viewers are clobbered with explicit dialog/visual effects to make sure that everyone knows exactly what's happening.
I've noticed a few small things in The Haunting that could hint at Theo's sexual orientation, and I don't believe they've been mentioned yet (my apologies if they have).
*Spoilers*
After Nell and Theo first meet Dr. Markway, we see the three of them visit the "purple parlor" as they're on the way to dinner. Theo is sitting in a chair and Nell is standing by Dr. Markway, who's commenting on the house's "wrong" angles.
When Nell says that all of these angles could cause the house to be one big distortion, Markway is pleased and tells her she catches on fast. Theo, still in the chair and looking none too happy, says she's hungry and wants to go. As they're leaving, she glares at Markway, then at Nell.
The next morning, Markway and Nell are at breakfast and are joined by Theo. As Theo is getting coffee from the sideboard, her back is to Nell. When she hears Nell calls Markway "John" for the first time, she turns around and gives Nell a nasty look.
I get the impression that Theo could be jealous of the rapport she sees between Markway and Nell.
A short time later, some writing that includes Nell's name is discovered on the wall outside the dining room. Nell finds this extremely upsettting. Theo then starts taunting her about it and Nell becomes angry.
Markway says Theo has done this so Nell will stop being afraid, but I wonder if it could be payback for the attraction between Nell and Markway that Theo has perceived.
Later, Theo and Nell are in Nell's room sipping brandy, even though Nell has told everyone she doesn't drink. Theo tells Nell: "By the time I'm through with you, you'll be a different person."
Towards the end of the same scene, Nell and Theo get into a brief altercation as they're both sitting in bed. Nell lies down and says she never wants to leave Hill House. Theo, who's still sitting, leans over towards Nell in a way that could suggest she's about to make a move on Nell. This is interrupted when Markway calls to them from the hall.
It's possible that I'm reading too much into these things, but I find them interesting nonetheless.
BTW, I haven't read the novel but I've just watched the 1999 remake, which I found to be as subtle as a train wreck. It's like they hired some big names, had everyone do a bunch of dumb/illogical things, threw in some CGI and a couple of "gotchas," and thought they'd have a blockbuster. As far as I'm concerned, there's no comparison between whatever *that* was and the 1963 version.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I think the way the two women deal with each other - the emotional repression that is the main theme of the story - is plausible for the time period of the novel and first movie (1959-63). That situation probably can't be taken whole into a later era.
The second movie made the briefest move into trying to show one of the women - Theo - as being more emotionally open (in an almost comical way) but that really wasn't the point. The point was to make a blockbuster, Speed with ghost-demons instead of buses.
Even beyond those limitations, the '99 movie had a climax of just bizarre awfulness.
The second movie made the briefest move into trying to show one of the women - Theo - as being more emotionally open (in an almost comical way) but that really wasn't the point. The point was to make a blockbuster, Speed with ghost-demons instead of buses.
Even beyond those limitations, the '99 movie had a climax of just bizarre awfulness.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Definitely on repeat viewings, you can see Theo's reaction to the exchanges between Nell and Markway. She's not happy and jealous. I wondered about that bed scene as well.
You can see this again in the hallway scene outside the nursery. Nell, clearly affected by the alcohol is being very playful with Markway and Theo does not look happy. She clearly resents this.
But evidence is conclusive whenever we have a scene where Nell and Markway flirt with each other. Theo feels threatened and becomes haughty. It's unclear whether Markway understands.
It's been suggested that Nell had some oppressed lesbian feelings but her preoccupation with Markway, her flirting and wondering what he thought of her completely dismisses this notion.
You can see this again in the hallway scene outside the nursery. Nell, clearly affected by the alcohol is being very playful with Markway and Theo does not look happy. She clearly resents this.
But evidence is conclusive whenever we have a scene where Nell and Markway flirt with each other. Theo feels threatened and becomes haughty. It's unclear whether Markway understands.
It's been suggested that Nell had some oppressed lesbian feelings but her preoccupation with Markway, her flirting and wondering what he thought of her completely dismisses this notion.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Nell doesn't know what she likes or where her attractions lie. She never had a normal adolescence or young adulthood since the majority of her life was taking care of her invalid mother. And considering what Nell said about her mother not trusting the neighbors, I very much doubt Nell was allowed to go out and meet men.
So the movie shows Nell confused by her simultaneous attraction to be both Markway and Theo (in the book the triangle is Nell-Luke-Theo).
So the movie shows Nell confused by her simultaneous attraction to be both Markway and Theo (in the book the triangle is Nell-Luke-Theo).
Re: Lesbian Subplot
If there was any attraction shown towards Theo by Nell in the MOVIE it seems to me it was strictly as a possible friend. Nell didn't have any friends due to her social isolation tending to her mother most of her life. On the other hand Theo was clearly putting the moves on Nell and it wasn't reciprocated. This was a one way sexual attraction from what we are shown in the film. Clearly Nell's attraction was to Dr. Markway.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
"This was a one way sexual attraction from what we are shown in the film. Clearly Nell's attraction was to Dr. Markway. "
There were subtle hints that Theo wasn't barking up the wrong tree and Nell was somewhat interested in her.
The toe painting scene is not as innocent as it appears.
Nell directs all her energy towards Markway because that is accepted. She doesn't know what to do about her attraction to Theo. What really makes Theo jealous and angry is that Markway didn't discourage Nell's flirting. The option was kept open.
Just like Nell didn't discourage Theo until she decided to stubbornly chase after Markway.
There were subtle hints that Theo wasn't barking up the wrong tree and Nell was somewhat interested in her.
The toe painting scene is not as innocent as it appears.
Nell directs all her energy towards Markway because that is accepted. She doesn't know what to do about her attraction to Theo. What really makes Theo jealous and angry is that Markway didn't discourage Nell's flirting. The option was kept open.
Just like Nell didn't discourage Theo until she decided to stubbornly chase after Markway.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Toe painting scene to me is simply a female bonding scene that doesn't have to be sexual in nature- from Nell's perspective. Nell seemed open to friendship with Theo (really to anyone who paid her any attention) and was woefully insecure as a person. Theo was (at least outwardly) the opposite- worldly, confident, stylish bon vivant. Nell is attracted to Theo because of those qualities- wow what an exciting individual. I'm judging what I'm seeing in the movie- not what might have happened in the novel which has differences in the story. I guess one could wonder how Nell would have reacted to what clearly appears to be an attempted kiss/move by Theo as she leans towards her in the bedroom which is interrupted by a haunting (hmmm maybe no coincidence there) but one can only speculate how Nell would have reacted to it since there really is a dearth of examples of Nell being sexually/romantically interested in Theo. While the screenplay is chock full of overt lesbian innuendos by Theo. Theo sees a lost soul while on the rebound from her breakup with her lover and tries to take advantage of the situation.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I know of no women (heterosexual) who allow their girlfriends to paint their toes. It isn't a part of any bonding ritual I know.
The book and the film show that Nell is bisexual at the least but may be lesbian. Theo is definitely lesbian. Part of Nell's breakdown is because she can't handle her attraction to both men and women.
The book and the film show that Nell is bisexual at the least but may be lesbian. Theo is definitely lesbian. Part of Nell's breakdown is because she can't handle her attraction to both men and women.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
As a guy I thought that was something hetero women/girls possibly did from time to time to each other. Guess I'm mistaken. I just don't see the film (not the novel) showing Nell as bi. But that said I'm reevaluating my stubbornness or inability to accept some of the points you've made in this thread and others concerning the rhymes and reasons behind the actions of the characters, particularly Eleanor. I've re-read some of your posts which are very insightful and thoughtful.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I've known of close female friends who do it, and yeah, it has no inherent sexual connotations.
Theo is a lesbian, definitely. Book and movie. That doesn't necessarily mean she's attracted to Nell. The book makes it pretty clear that when it's all over at Hill House, she's going back to her partner to reconcile, she's just trying to get a bit of space while the argument cools.
It's also worth noting that in the book - and this is a wee bit of a spoiler - Theo's orientation matters not because she may or may not be attracted to Nell, but because the reader knows that Nell's interpretation of Theo and Luke's relationship is way, way off base.
So yeah, Theo's a lesbian, but I don't think Nell is. I think it's an injustice to the characters and the story to assume that just because a lesbian character is involved we're supposed to assume the tension must be romantic or sexual in natute. I think the tension between them just because Theo is so confident and comfortable with her sexuality and identity in a way that the painfully repressed Eleanor is not, and never will be.
Theo is a lesbian, definitely. Book and movie. That doesn't necessarily mean she's attracted to Nell. The book makes it pretty clear that when it's all over at Hill House, she's going back to her partner to reconcile, she's just trying to get a bit of space while the argument cools.
It's also worth noting that in the book - and this is a wee bit of a spoiler - Theo's orientation matters not because she may or may not be attracted to Nell, but because the reader knows that Nell's interpretation of Theo and Luke's relationship is way, way off base.
So yeah, Theo's a lesbian, but I don't think Nell is. I think it's an injustice to the characters and the story to assume that just because a lesbian character is involved we're supposed to assume the tension must be romantic or sexual in natute. I think the tension between them just because Theo is so confident and comfortable with her sexuality and identity in a way that the painfully repressed Eleanor is not, and never will be.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I've never had my toenails painted by any of my female friends. The notion strikes me as odd. And most of my friends never expressed a desire to have their toenails painted by women (unless they worked in a beauty salon).
The only other toenail scene, I've watched in a film, was Kubrick's Lolita (released around the same time) and it was a sexual scene.
Nell doesn't know her sexuality. She never had a chance to develop that aspect of herself. So the book/film shows her being both attracted to men and women. The book has small scenes that indicate that Nell is disturbed that she is attracted to Theo. In one paragraph in the novel, she pulls her hand away from Theo because she is embarrassed and disturbed by the act of being touched by Theo.
The book takes care to paint Theo as greengreen with jealousy. She went after Luke in the book because Nell was interested in him. The book also states that Theo likes to destroy things. Nell being one of those things.
The only other toenail scene, I've watched in a film, was Kubrick's Lolita (released around the same time) and it was a sexual scene.
Nell doesn't know her sexuality. She never had a chance to develop that aspect of herself. So the book/film shows her being both attracted to men and women. The book has small scenes that indicate that Nell is disturbed that she is attracted to Theo. In one paragraph in the novel, she pulls her hand away from Theo because she is embarrassed and disturbed by the act of being touched by Theo.
The book takes care to paint Theo as greengreen with jealousy. She went after Luke in the book because Nell was interested in him. The book also states that Theo likes to destroy things. Nell being one of those things.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I've never had my toenails painted by any of my female friends. The notion strikes me as odd. And most of my friends never expressed a desire to have their toenails painted by women (unless they worked in a beauty salon).
In particular teenage girls do this all the time. It's a sleepover tradition.
I disagree with a lot of your interpretations of the book, but that's all in the eye of the beholder I suppose.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
In particular teenage girls do this all the time. It's a sleepover tradition.
Yes. As well as putting curlers in one another's hair, and so on. Even women in their 20s, not just teens a "girls' night" type of fun thing, with no sexual overtones or undertones.
Particularly with putting polish on your own toes, it's a bit awkward, and easier if someone else does it.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Theo's relationship to Nell is that of an abusive suitor - she doesn't express her sexuality romantically, she seems to have been just as horrible to her ex-room-mate.
Everything about Hill House is abusive - eventually the house itself courts Nell, seducing and destroying her.
One of Shirley Jackson's folk-songs was The Demon Lover, she quotes it in full at the end of one of her anthologies.
Everything about Hill House is abusive - eventually the house itself courts Nell, seducing and destroying her.
One of Shirley Jackson's folk-songs was The Demon Lover, she quotes it in full at the end of one of her anthologies.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I don't see how Theo is abusive. She's uncompromising, with everybody, but I think it's a serious stretch to say she's abusive and we have no reason to think she's abusive to her girlfriend.
I find her infinitely more sympathetic, and far less self-involved than Nell. Nell is naive and vulnerable in many ways, but don't forget - whether it's the house's influence or not - she repeatedly lashes out at other characters. She's damaged by her circumstances sure, but if you take that away, she's a pretty obnoxious person to be around, and often verbally cruel.
I find her infinitely more sympathetic, and far less self-involved than Nell. Nell is naive and vulnerable in many ways, but don't forget - whether it's the house's influence or not - she repeatedly lashes out at other characters. She's damaged by her circumstances sure, but if you take that away, she's a pretty obnoxious person to be around, and often verbally cruel.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Prof is right, Theo is abusive. She likes to "break" things. She states so in the beginning of the novel. And she proceeds to break Nell when Nell refuses to slavishly adore her.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Theo directed some mean and catty/bitchy comments towards Nell in the movie. She was arrogant at times. Nell made one verbally cruel comment to Theo saying she was a mistake of nature, but Theo had been doing her share of snarky comments before to precipitate Nell's comment.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
There was clearly a lesbian subplot. But it was one way. Theo showed some interest in Nell but I think she just enjoyed toying with her. She resented Nell being attracted to Markway though.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
well I'm not a fan of this gay innuendo in movies, but in this movie its so subtle that you would barely notice it. its only if your looking for it that that you notice. when they ask what scares theo she responds "knowing what I really want". scary indeed! and what about the zinger that she gives theo, something about "unnatural things, natures mistakes. YOU for instance!" HAHA!
Realism, Remakes and Unnecessary Sequels are ruining movies!
Realism, Remakes and Unnecessary Sequels are ruining movies!
Re: Lesbian Subplot
The Haunting is notable for its lesbian character, Theodora. Although the character's lesbianism is subtly mentioned in the novel, the film makes it explicit. The film is also one of the few Hollywood motion pictures to depict a lesbian as feminine and not predatory. Theodora's lesbianism helps to create conflict in the picture. Had Theodora been heterosexual, Eleanor's growing attraction to Dr. Markway would not have threatened her. But with Theodora a clear lesbian, Markway becomes a threat which causes conflict between the psychic and the investigator. Originally, Gidding's script had contained a scene early in the film in which Theodora is shown in her apartment in the city. It is clear from the context that she has just broken off with her female lover: "I hate you" is written on the mirror in lipstick. Theodora is yelling curses at her out the window, and more. However, Wise decided to cut the scene, believing it to be too explicit for a film which worked hard to make things implicit. According to Julie Harris, film censors demanded that Theo never be shown to touch Eleanor, in order to keep the lesbianism less obvious
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Re: Lesbian Subplot
I just posted this in a different threadbut it seems to apply here, as well:
But really..Eleanor is NOT in Theo's league, at ALL!
.
I have no idea why the glamorous Theo is sexually attracted to the mousy drip Eleanor. It seems kind of insulting to homo/bisexualsportraying them like they're overheated sex fiends who'll just fling themselves at anyone they share a room with.
But really..Eleanor is NOT in Theo's league, at ALL!
.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
We don't know Theo's regular type. But I suppose she is attracted to bookish, mousy and nerdy women. Women who will not steal her thunder as the sexy one.
The film cut out the scene from the book in which she leaves her "roommate" after a fight. So in the novel, the flirting she directed toward Eleanor was revenge. And when Eleanor rejected her, she started flirting with Luke.
The film cut out the scene from the book in which she leaves her "roommate" after a fight. So in the novel, the flirting she directed toward Eleanor was revenge. And when Eleanor rejected her, she started flirting with Luke.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Maybe revenge; I might phrase it as "meeting her [Eleanor] on the rebound." Theo seems interested in her for a few days but, as I mentioned on the other thread, it's Theo in the end who does the rejecting, not the other way around. A lot of that isn't in the movie version.
Yes, she does flirt with Luke in their last few days there. That's not in the movie either.
Yes, she does flirt with Luke in their last few days there. That's not in the movie either.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
No, Eleanor rejects Theo first in her pursuit of Luke (book)/Markway (film). What the film leaves out is Theo's revenge by flirting with the man Nell likes. Theo rejects Nell at her lowest point.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
"Nature's mistakes like they call people like you for instance!"
It's a very powerful line. Rarely do films deliver such perfect lines of dialogue at a more perfect time.
"The more real things get, the more like myths they become. " R.W. Fassbinder
It's a very powerful line. Rarely do films deliver such perfect lines of dialogue at a more perfect time.
"The more real things get, the more like myths they become. " R.W. Fassbinder
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Re: Lesbian Subplot
This thread has been a fascinating read. As many times as I've seen The Haunting, and read the book several times, it never occurred to me Theo was a lesbian. Now that I know, it's so obvious, I don't know how I missed it.
I did first see it when I was a kid, so that's probably the reason didn't know to catch it then, and never reexamined the Theo/Nell relationship again afterwards. It certainly explains a lot!
Like others, I'd thought Nell's "unnatural" comment was about Theo's psychic abilities, but then Nell had some of her own, so it didn't add up. I'd thought Theo was angered by Nell's interest in the doctor because she didn't like the doctor's attention on Nell (rather than herself), and knew Nell was a fool for going after him.
It all makes so much more sense now, Theo's reaction to Luke when he touched her, Luke's comment about there being more going on that meets the eye, and many more details.
On a side note, The Children's Hour was made in 1961.
Added: I'd also thought the very conservative and naive Nell was shocked when Theo revealed she'd been living with someone, and wasn't married, and her "unnatural" comment might have referred to that in addition to her psychic abilities.
I did first see it when I was a kid, so that's probably the reason didn't know to catch it then, and never reexamined the Theo/Nell relationship again afterwards. It certainly explains a lot!
Like others, I'd thought Nell's "unnatural" comment was about Theo's psychic abilities, but then Nell had some of her own, so it didn't add up. I'd thought Theo was angered by Nell's interest in the doctor because she didn't like the doctor's attention on Nell (rather than herself), and knew Nell was a fool for going after him.
It all makes so much more sense now, Theo's reaction to Luke when he touched her, Luke's comment about there being more going on that meets the eye, and many more details.
On a side note, The Children's Hour was made in 1961.
Added: I'd also thought the very conservative and naive Nell was shocked when Theo revealed she'd been living with someone, and wasn't married, and her "unnatural" comment might have referred to that in addition to her psychic abilities.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I thought Theo was supposed to be bi sexual? Anyway, I've painted my friends toe nails when I was younger, I'm not gay but I don't know of any lesbians who hit on woman via toenail polish sessions.
I always felt the tension between Nell and Theo wasn't romantic or sexual but because Theo was able to somehow see and read things about Eleanor that Nell didn't want her to. I presumed Theo was using her ESP on her and it was upsetting to Eleanor that she knew certain things. Also Theo seemed very manipulative psychologicaly and emotionally. She was so sophisticated and worldly that she ran circles around her and Nell just couldn't get a good grasp of any situation With Theo.
In the remake, I have no idea why anybody would be interested in Nell. Clearly in that movie the Theo character is attracted to Nellbut why is a mystery, she is far from good looking not to mention boring as hell.
Brian Kinney & Justin Taylor
I always felt the tension between Nell and Theo wasn't romantic or sexual but because Theo was able to somehow see and read things about Eleanor that Nell didn't want her to. I presumed Theo was using her ESP on her and it was upsetting to Eleanor that she knew certain things. Also Theo seemed very manipulative psychologicaly and emotionally. She was so sophisticated and worldly that she ran circles around her and Nell just couldn't get a good grasp of any situation With Theo.
In the remake, I have no idea why anybody would be interested in Nell. Clearly in that movie the Theo character is attracted to Nellbut why is a mystery, she is far from good looking not to mention boring as hell.
Brian Kinney & Justin Taylor
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I was experimenting with a "fan fiction" script that deals with the Eleanor / Theo relationship, among other things. I wondered what it would be like if Eleanor was more assertive and Theo more vulnerable - in other words, if they weren't complete opposites after all.
Anyway, here is one scene. It is set in the 1990s, like the remake. This is about a ten days after they arrived. There is indeed tension between the two women but they are also openly "courting" each other. There also was something of a competition for Luke although Theo has pretty much conceded this issue.
One afternoon Nell is lounging around in a chair, not doing much of anything. She has her feet up on an ottoman. Theo is sitting nearby on a couch, leafing through the piles of magazines and newspapers that have accumulated on the coffee table.
Luke comes into the room; Nell waves him over.
Nell, Luke, since youre already up, would you be a dear and get me a glass of diet cola? There should be some in the fridge.
Luke, Yeah, sure. You want some ice with that, right?
Nell, Yes, and Id like a lemon slice too, if you dont mind.
Luke, Do we still have any lemons?
Nell, Theres one on the door, youll see it on the top shelf.
Luke nods and heads towards the kitchen.
Nell calls out to him, I almost forgot, I need a coaster too. He waves to acknowledge the request and continues out of the room.
Nell sees Theo staring at her. Nell says, Well, you know Davids been bugging us about the furniture stains again. [David is the name of the professor in the remake.]
Theo, Its not the coaster, its the whole thing. What have you got going with him? You just sit on your butt and order beverages whenever youre in the mood?
Nell, I dont know, hes just a nice guy, I guess.
Theo, Yeah, but you got him slicing lemons for you too?
Nell shrugs. A bit later, Luke is back with the soda.
Luke, Here you go. He puts the glass and coaster down on the table next to her chair.
Nell, Why, thank you. She picks up the glass and takes a sip, then leans back as if thinking about the taste. Luke is standing there looking like a waiter.
This is too much for Theo. She says, Luke, you know what, would you get me a seltzer with ice?
Luke seems peeved, Come on, why didnt you ask me before I went in there?
Theo sounds apologetic, Ah - sorry, I suppose it just didnt occur to me.
Nell puts down her glass and raises her hand to intercede. She touches Luke's arm, I know its a bit inconvenient, but Id really appreciate it if you got her seltzer.
Luke, Oh, ok, no problem.
Nell looks at Theo, You want lemon too?
Theo decides to make it difficult, Id really rather have a slice of lime.
Nell looks up at Luke again, Theres a lime stuffed in that little box that says, Butter. She says to Theo, Its getting a bit crowded in that fridge, we should start eating the leftovers soon.
Luke gives a brief thumbs-up sign and heads off again.
After he goes, Theo says, What - the - hell . . .
Nell gives an exaggerated laugh, Hah, hah, hah!
Theo, It doesnt matter, Im not that into him anyway.
Nell, You know what? Hes not that into you either.
Theo, Hey, come on.
Nell, I know what it is; you think youre really hot, dont you?
Theo, Thats because I am hot!
Nell, Well, Im pretty hot too.
Theo, So were both hot. At least we can agree on that.
Nell ponders this, There is a difference, however. Some people like you are born hot, others like me have hotness thrust upon them.
They stare at each other for a moment and then they burst out laughing.
Luke is quickly back with the glass of seltzer. He stands next to Nells chair.
Nell, Its her drink, remember?
He steps over and hands the glass to Theo.
Nell, Say, thank you Luke.
Theo, Thank you Luke.
Luke, Youre ah welcome, I guess.
[The scene may continue as follows.]
Nell, Sanderson, why dont you get your own drink and hang out with us? How about a beer?
Luke, Its one o'clock.
Nell, "So, havent you heard of the two-martini lunch?
Theo, Actually its the three-martini lunch.
Nell, Right, Id be useless for the rest of the day.
Theo, Some people have a Bloody Mary with breakfast.
Nell, Reminds me of my previous boyfriend.
Theo, You havent said much about him.
Nell looks over at Luke who is still standing there awkwardly.
Nell, Maybe some other time.
Luke realizes he has reached a decision point, Theres one Fosters left; I think Ill get that.
Nell, Just one? How about the Old Milwaukees?
Luke, That hasnt changed in three days; still sixteen of those.
Theo, Well, what did you expect?
[Mr. Dudley the caretaker has an expense account to buy supplies and he's been getting cheap stuff - including Old Milwaukee beer. The people have been going into town to supplement what he provides.]
Anyway, here is one scene. It is set in the 1990s, like the remake. This is about a ten days after they arrived. There is indeed tension between the two women but they are also openly "courting" each other. There also was something of a competition for Luke although Theo has pretty much conceded this issue.
One afternoon Nell is lounging around in a chair, not doing much of anything. She has her feet up on an ottoman. Theo is sitting nearby on a couch, leafing through the piles of magazines and newspapers that have accumulated on the coffee table.
Luke comes into the room; Nell waves him over.
Nell, Luke, since youre already up, would you be a dear and get me a glass of diet cola? There should be some in the fridge.
Luke, Yeah, sure. You want some ice with that, right?
Nell, Yes, and Id like a lemon slice too, if you dont mind.
Luke, Do we still have any lemons?
Nell, Theres one on the door, youll see it on the top shelf.
Luke nods and heads towards the kitchen.
Nell calls out to him, I almost forgot, I need a coaster too. He waves to acknowledge the request and continues out of the room.
Nell sees Theo staring at her. Nell says, Well, you know Davids been bugging us about the furniture stains again. [David is the name of the professor in the remake.]
Theo, Its not the coaster, its the whole thing. What have you got going with him? You just sit on your butt and order beverages whenever youre in the mood?
Nell, I dont know, hes just a nice guy, I guess.
Theo, Yeah, but you got him slicing lemons for you too?
Nell shrugs. A bit later, Luke is back with the soda.
Luke, Here you go. He puts the glass and coaster down on the table next to her chair.
Nell, Why, thank you. She picks up the glass and takes a sip, then leans back as if thinking about the taste. Luke is standing there looking like a waiter.
This is too much for Theo. She says, Luke, you know what, would you get me a seltzer with ice?
Luke seems peeved, Come on, why didnt you ask me before I went in there?
Theo sounds apologetic, Ah - sorry, I suppose it just didnt occur to me.
Nell puts down her glass and raises her hand to intercede. She touches Luke's arm, I know its a bit inconvenient, but Id really appreciate it if you got her seltzer.
Luke, Oh, ok, no problem.
Nell looks at Theo, You want lemon too?
Theo decides to make it difficult, Id really rather have a slice of lime.
Nell looks up at Luke again, Theres a lime stuffed in that little box that says, Butter. She says to Theo, Its getting a bit crowded in that fridge, we should start eating the leftovers soon.
Luke gives a brief thumbs-up sign and heads off again.
After he goes, Theo says, What - the - hell . . .
Nell gives an exaggerated laugh, Hah, hah, hah!
Theo, It doesnt matter, Im not that into him anyway.
Nell, You know what? Hes not that into you either.
Theo, Hey, come on.
Nell, I know what it is; you think youre really hot, dont you?
Theo, Thats because I am hot!
Nell, Well, Im pretty hot too.
Theo, So were both hot. At least we can agree on that.
Nell ponders this, There is a difference, however. Some people like you are born hot, others like me have hotness thrust upon them.
They stare at each other for a moment and then they burst out laughing.
Luke is quickly back with the glass of seltzer. He stands next to Nells chair.
Nell, Its her drink, remember?
He steps over and hands the glass to Theo.
Nell, Say, thank you Luke.
Theo, Thank you Luke.
Luke, Youre ah welcome, I guess.
[The scene may continue as follows.]
Nell, Sanderson, why dont you get your own drink and hang out with us? How about a beer?
Luke, Its one o'clock.
Nell, "So, havent you heard of the two-martini lunch?
Theo, Actually its the three-martini lunch.
Nell, Right, Id be useless for the rest of the day.
Theo, Some people have a Bloody Mary with breakfast.
Nell, Reminds me of my previous boyfriend.
Theo, You havent said much about him.
Nell looks over at Luke who is still standing there awkwardly.
Nell, Maybe some other time.
Luke realizes he has reached a decision point, Theres one Fosters left; I think Ill get that.
Nell, Just one? How about the Old Milwaukees?
Luke, That hasnt changed in three days; still sixteen of those.
Theo, Well, what did you expect?
[Mr. Dudley the caretaker has an expense account to buy supplies and he's been getting cheap stuff - including Old Milwaukee beer. The people have been going into town to supplement what he provides.]
Re: Lesbian Subplot
Theo isn't bi-sexual. She likes only women and that is clear in the books as well as the film.
What she does in the book is very devious. She knows that Nell likes Luke but does not have enough self esteem to make a move on him. So when she rejects Theo's advances, Theo turns around and flirts with Luke herself ruining any hopes Nell had for him. By the time Luke comes around to Nell, her sanity is slipping.
As far as what Nell looks likewe don't know. The film had to make a choice, obviously. It did skew the ages of the characters olderexcept for Luke.
In the book, Luke, Nell and Theo are around the same age. Perhaps about mid to late 20s. We know Nell doesn't think she is pretty. But the other characters seem interested in her. So I don't think she is a horror.
I thought Julie Harris was very attractive. They really tried to make her dowdy and dotty.
What she does in the book is very devious. She knows that Nell likes Luke but does not have enough self esteem to make a move on him. So when she rejects Theo's advances, Theo turns around and flirts with Luke herself ruining any hopes Nell had for him. By the time Luke comes around to Nell, her sanity is slipping.
As far as what Nell looks likewe don't know. The film had to make a choice, obviously. It did skew the ages of the characters olderexcept for Luke.
In the book, Luke, Nell and Theo are around the same age. Perhaps about mid to late 20s. We know Nell doesn't think she is pretty. But the other characters seem interested in her. So I don't think she is a horror.
I thought Julie Harris was very attractive. They really tried to make her dowdy and dotty.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
I get the impression from the novel (maybe less so in the movie) that Theo, within about a week, finds that Nell is not compatible with her and in fact is quite tiresome to be around. At one point - around the sixth day - Nell blurts out that she wants to move in with Theo after the Hill House experiment is over. Theo of course rejects this idea: "Do you always go where you are not wanted?"
The one time Luke and Nell make any kind of serious approach to each other is when they are sitting on the steps of the summer house. (This is not in the movie.) Luke's "charm," if he has any, deserts him, and Nell loses patience with him in about ten minutes.
In the end Theo and Luke sort of team up to tease and scoff at Nell. Maybe they're doing it out of boredom rather than real spite. In any case, Nell is too insecure to realize that it was the luck of the draw to get stuck with incompatible people at this place. She sort of expected that either Theo or Luke would solve her problems for her and she can't imagine alternative plans.
P.S. In the book Nell's age is given as thirty-two.
The one time Luke and Nell make any kind of serious approach to each other is when they are sitting on the steps of the summer house. (This is not in the movie.) Luke's "charm," if he has any, deserts him, and Nell loses patience with him in about ten minutes.
In the end Theo and Luke sort of team up to tease and scoff at Nell. Maybe they're doing it out of boredom rather than real spite. In any case, Nell is too insecure to realize that it was the luck of the draw to get stuck with incompatible people at this place. She sort of expected that either Theo or Luke would solve her problems for her and she can't imagine alternative plans.
P.S. In the book Nell's age is given as thirty-two.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
No, the book is quite clear that Eleanor rejects Theo in hopes for Luke. The book continually equates Luke with Hugh Crain and Nell as the first Mrs. Crain.
Theo, in turn, is continually equated with the theme of jealousy. She runs away from her partner in what seems like jealousy. She tells everyone she likes to destroy things. She wears the color green. She continually interposes herself between Luke and Nell. Midway through the book she borrows all of Nell's nicest clothes, in essence STEALING her place, her very identity. Theo finds her destruction of Nell quite amusing. All due to jealousy and that Nell didn't go running to be her little lapdog.
Ironic that Nell's one move in self-interest (rejecting Theo) is the real reason why she is undone.
Theo, in turn, is continually equated with the theme of jealousy. She runs away from her partner in what seems like jealousy. She tells everyone she likes to destroy things. She wears the color green. She continually interposes herself between Luke and Nell. Midway through the book she borrows all of Nell's nicest clothes, in essence STEALING her place, her very identity. Theo finds her destruction of Nell quite amusing. All due to jealousy and that Nell didn't go running to be her little lapdog.
Ironic that Nell's one move in self-interest (rejecting Theo) is the real reason why she is undone.
Re: Lesbian Subplot
http://www.imdb.com/board/10171363/board/thread/146911729?p=2&d=1 72828074#172828074
I liked the novel too, but I only used it as a starting point. I was really trying for something different from the '99 movie (which indeed was awful). But several people have read what I've done and given me positive feedback, so I've kept going.
I do have a version of Arthur Parker in this. The professor's wife (who is also a professor herself) is named Grace Marrow, with her first name coming from the earlier movie and her last name from the '99 one.