Manhunter : When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Great scene. The smallest details finally come together in his mind. You see the wheels turning as he starts to put the pieces in place. Funny how, in hindsight, it makes sense and almost seems obvious.

"You've seen these films!"

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Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

What makes it particularly exhilarating is the way the music on the soundtrack is slowly swimming more and more to the surface until it almost overflows the scene, perfectly accentuating the gravity of the realization Graham is gradually arriving at.



"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Another thing I love about that (awesome) scene is how both Petersen and Farina are at wits end by that point and the way they go at each other.

Amazing chemistry between those two.



Wait a minute who am I here?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Yeah the music is key.

Farina does a great job also, sort of wondering "what's he getting at?" during Graham's thought process.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

What makes it particularly exhilarating is the way the music on the soundtrack is slowly swimming more and more to the surface until it almost overflows the scene, perfectly accentuating the gravity of the realization Graham is gradually arriving at.


Yes, it's probably the most emotionally scene in the entire film. For some strange reason, it almost moves me to crying.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen


What makes it particularly exhilarating is the way the music on the soundtrack is slowly swimming more and more to the surface until it almost overflows the scene, perfectly accentuating the gravity of the realization Graham is gradually arriving at.


I generally found the soundtrack to be one of the film's weakest points - it's often needlessly loud and intrusive, and the song selection is often out of place. This scene is one exception - the music actually helps rather than detracts.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Just re-watching this great flick and I agree this was a perfect scene, with building tension and music. I also noticed the awe reflected on Crawford's face as he watches Graham do his mind-reading thing - the thing he pulled Graham out of retirement for. It also serves to reflect our own awe watching the scene.
Nice.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

It's my favourite scene in any film i have watched, it's just mesmerising.

I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass, and I'm all out of bubblegum.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Which DVD has the extended version with Graham mentioning Francis' troubled childhood?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

The DVD that featuring this cover is the true, theatrical release and contains that scene:

http://www.deepdiscount.com/manhunter/027616085597



Wait a minute who am I here?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Probably one of the worst examples of DVD art totally misrepresenting the movie. Awful.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Yeah, and there have been so many different releases of the film, it's really hard to keep track.



Wait a minute who am I here?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

What a scene. Someone earlier said they don't like the music from this film? The music is absolutely brilliant in this movie and this scene is enhanced by the score, as well as a handful of other scenes. Such an intense part of the movie, and then my favorite part is when he reaches his hand up to the glass after telling his partner to tell the guy to peal the sticker back. One of the best films of the 80s in my opinion.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

It was a great scene full of building tension, and one of my favorite movies.

But ironically, I thought that the thought-process and the elements he put together to determine Dollarhyde saw the home movies, was kind of silly:

1 - Will determined that since they had a high back fence, the killer couldn't have seen that they had a sliding glass door, and thus would need to bring a glass cutter. Really? You know of any houses that don't have glass? No matter what the configuration: all glass sliding doors, french doors, or even solid wood doorsa glass cutter could be used to gain entry to a house.

2 - Bolt-cutters. Will determined that since the killer was sitting in the tree scoping out the house and used the bolt-cutter to cut a tree branch, that he must have known the family had a door secured by a padlock, but that they had switched it to a dead-bolt months earlier. So again, if the killer still believed this to be the case, why would he have had or needed a glass cutter? The guy was a serial killer, not an experienced home burglar

3 - Will was amazed that the killer knew it was the family's dog, even though it had no identifying collar. Well they had the high back fence, remember? There was never any mention that the dog was killed while roaming the neighborhood, so it would be safe to assume the dog was in the yard.which makes identifying it as their dog, and wanting to kill it to make his later invasion of the home easier, pretty much a no-brainer.



Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

For #2, those were two separate families. In one, he knew he needed a glass cutter (Leed's house) and in the other he knew (thought) he needed a bolt cutter (Jacobi house). He didn't bring both a glass cutter and a bolt cutter to either house. That's part of the way Graham puts it together.

You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Good points, and you're right during his 'enlightenment' of figuring out how the victims were being chosen, he bounced back and forth between families.

However, if he thought he needed a bolt cutter for the Jacobi house, yet when he got to the house there was no longer a padlocked outer door but a deadbolthow did he get in?


Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

He busted in a door. Graham just asks why he didn't use the cutter on the garage door. That's when Crawford says that the padlock wasn't there, which leads Graham to his epiphany.

In Red Dragon they have a scene where Graham talks with a repairman actually fixing the damaged door. He asks him why he didn't just use the garage door.

You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Ahhh yes, you are absolutely correct. Thanks for the replies


Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

I loved that scene so much.

Everything was perfect about it. Tension was at a high between Peterson and Farina with Crawford more or less bowing down to Tooth Fairy while Graham told him to man up and keep on going. Graham is tired and bothered but he wants to figure it all out and when he does Peterson did such an epic job of showing it in his face. The "ah-ha/bingo" moment in his face is a great job of acting.

The music slowly builds up in volume and epicness to the point it's just flat out awesome and Mann did a great job of directing it.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

It's a key scene, no doubt, but it doesn't make sense. Will tells Jack to call about the film cans before he realizes that the killer has seen the films. Why would he ask about the film cans before the big moment of realization? If he realizes, at first, that the cans are significant, we aren't shown why. It seems to me that the mistake is intentional. If the call about the cans is made after Will realizes their significance, we'd all have to wait for the two calls to be made.

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Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

I always put it as he was onto something, but wasn't sure what until "You've seen these films!".

You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Thanks for trying to help me out, Mickyfinn. But I still can't figure him asking for the film cans before he's figured out their importance. I don't have the movie, but I think he says, "You've seen the 's dog. You've seen the xxx's cat. You know about the lock." And so forth, after he's asked for the cans, not before. If somebody can correct me on this, I might half-way buy it. Even with this possible problem, though, I watch this movie every chance I get. Peterson is excellent. With this and To Live and Die in L.A., I thought for sure at the time that he'd be a big star. They offered this role to Newman, and I can't see him being as effective as as WP's barely controlled tension and his intense concentration. All the other key roles may have been done better, but not Will Graham.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

I just caught that scene on cable. When, as I said he is on to something, he just asks for the guard to call him - he doesn't mention the cans. It's after he realizes the Tooth Fairy has seen the films, the guard calls back and Graham tells him to find the films.

You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

So it's not as egregious as I thought. Still, why ask for the guard to call before he knows the guard has something he needs to know? I'll have to watch it again next time it shows up on TCM, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it. Thanks, Mick.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

That's always intrigued me too but I don't think it's egregious at all.

It's the full moon. Tooth Fairy is going to kill another family that night and Graham is anxious. Not just because he wants to prevent it, but also because he's getting closer and closer to the killer's psyche. He wants and needs the things belonging to the Jacobi's and the Leedses, not just as clues, but because Tooth Fairy has a connection with them too.

You might say that Graham reaching out to the evidence room and then recognising the discrepancy between what he can see on the tapes (which are in the evidence room) and what Dollarhyde saw and what Dollarhyde did to the lock is maybe 90% coincidence and 10% precognition. Since Dollarhyde is now in his head now.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority Italics = irony. Infer the opposite please.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Now that's helpful! Coincidence I can't buy, but I can completely buy precognition. Will's operating on a level most people can't approach, is probably unrealisticthis is fiction, after alland that the movie has done a good job of dramatizing. So, yes, part of his mind may be working ahead of his consciousness.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen


It's the full moon. Tooth Fairy is going to kill another family that night and Graham is anxious.
Given Graham and Dollarhyde are linked the full moon will affect Graham as much as Dollarhyde.

A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

The idea that the full moon affects people is a myth. The moon is the same size and distance no matter how much of it is lit at the time. People are simply more likely to remember what phase the moon is in when it's full and thus more noticeable. When weird things happen on other nights, no one bothers to note the moon phase. It's a form of confirmation bias.

-There is no such word as "alot."

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Two hugely important scenes for Graham's characterisation in Manhunter.

In the earlier scene where he realises where the the talcum powder came from at the first murder scene. "Did you take your gloves off?!!!" Graham is enraged, but is at the killer or is it at the killer's mistake.

In the scene where he connects the two families and the killer having seen the tapes "Haven't you, my man?" it is similarly unclear if he's saying it with self satisfaction or with admiration.



Glasgow's FOREMOST authority Italics = irony. Infer the opposite please.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Talcum Powder - his rage is from his disgust that the Tooth Fairy opened the husband's and children's eyes so they "could see him". Not the 'mistake'.

And I don't think "Haven't you, my man" is self-satsfaction or (especially) admiration. It's the way he 'talks' to the Tooth Fairy. Notice he says "Its just you and me now, Sport" after he sends his wife to Montana (or wherever it was) after the TF got his address. Probably has these 'conversations' with all the killers in his cases.

You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

I don't know why Graham would be especially disgusted at the opening of the victims eyes. These are people he has already brutally murdered. I don't see Graham raising his voice at opening their eyes.

Clearly he is working himself into a rage over the whole thing. But right before that he calls Molly to tell her he loves her, because he knows that he has to sympathise with the killer at the scene to really get his MO. He concludes that the killer took his gloves off so he could touch Mrs Leeds then wiped away any possible prints. But in feeding his fantasy the killer would have left a print on the cornea or eyelid. It is certainly consistent with Graham's state of mind to be simultaneousley thrilled at the lead and scornful of the killer's carlessness. So the motivation for his anger is ambiguous to say the least.

Yes there's a similar tone of affinity to his vocalising the tussle with Tooth Fairy ("sport") and the "my man" line. But that provides more ambiguity, for me, since at other times he expresses total lack of sympathy with the killer and, instead, his desire to blow him away.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority Italics = irony. Infer the opposite please.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

I respectfully disagree. As far as the 'eyes' thing. In one of the iterations of the scene discussed in this thread (The Directors Cut, but there are others if you are watching a broadcast), Graham talks about his sympathy for the TF as child (to Crawford's surprise). But has rage for the TF as an adult - in the way he "butchers whole families" to fullfil a meaningless fantasy. I think this is what you see in the anger - he is disgusted not only by the killing but the arranging of the bodies and the opening of the eyes as a desecration.

And I see the "Sport" and "My man" as a taunt. Clearly the "its you and me now, Sport" is a challenge. There is no sympathy.

You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

"Did you open their dead eyes?" Seems like a strange place to suddenly become disgusted by what Tooth Fairy does. Especially since he carries the pictures around for a quick peek every now and then. He doesn't even know that there are fingerprints there yet. He's intuiting that he's opened their eyes (while they were dead) this is because he's getting into the killer's psyche, which will result in some sense of sympathy/empathy whether Graham wills/wants it or not.

So he's arguably as enraged at the carelessness of the killer as much as the killer's MO.

"Sport" may be a taunt. "My man"?. I've never heard that used as a taunt.

I'm not throwing out one perspective in favour of another. Both are applicable to an extent. It's this kind of ambiguity that makes the film endure. Not straight answers.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority Italics = irony. Infer the opposite please.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

It's really not that strange. Culturally there's a lot associated with the eyes. Eyes are the windows to the soul. They're fragile, they have character, you never let people touch your eyes. When people die, the eyes are closed out of solemn respect for the dead. Opening the eyes of his victims as part of his ritual might seem like a very intimate violation of TFs victims.

Life is not the opposite of Death, Death is the opposite of Birth. Life is eternal.
-Anathema

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

The opening of the eyes by Dollarhyde was specifically so that the victims could "see" him. Whether that's a strange aspect of psychopathology or not, I don't know.

From Graham's point of view though it's a huge mistake on the killer's part as it gives them a chance to find a print there.

Glasgow's FOREMOST authority Italics = irony. Infer the opposite please.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen


"Sport" may be a taunt. "My man"?. I've never heard that used as a taunt.


"My man" is not necessarily a taunt. Remember when Crawford and Graham are walking the Tooth Fairy's note through the lab techs? In the meeting afterward, the hair technician confirms the Tooth Fairy wrote it and says, "the note was written by your man". Its like FBI lingo - to the investigator, the target of the investigation (particularly when the identity is not known is 'his man'.

You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

"Notice he says "It's just you and me now, Sport" after he sends his wife to Montana".

The best part is that he's actually staring at his own reflection in the window when he says that line. It's gonna be his inner struggle as much as a confrontation with the killer.



"facts are stupid things" Ronald Reagan

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

@ Marmadukebagelhole

Nice post. I would suggest that the ambiguities you suggest in those two scenes are meant as ambiguities. Everyone is aware from the outset, including Graham, that he has to cross a line within himself to reach into the mind of Dollarhyde in order to find him. It is hard for Graham not to admire Dollarhyde as well as hate him simultaneously. At points in the film Graham is closer to and more intimate with Dollarhyde than he is with Molly.

This for me is part of the enduring greatness of the film. It explores the humanity of a man deplored by society and the evil/amorality that is present to touch in a sensitive and caring man.

A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

One of my favourite scenes ever from any film. Everything just works, the acting, direction and music. All leading to this epiphany as Graham realises the tooth fairy has a connection to the home movies.

Was it a millionaire who said "Imagine no possessions"?

Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Great scene, one of the best of this brillant movie.
Petersen's acting is so intense, i also love the use of music and Mann's framing and editingpowerful direction, powerful scene.

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Re: When Graham Puts it Together How Victims' Being Chosen

Great scene, and well played out, from Will and Crawford's heated arguement, to Will finally piecing together the final clues as to how the killer chose the victims is nothing short of classic cinema at its finest. The music in the scene adds to the beauty of it (the whole film is a haunting, darkly beautiful thrill ride).
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