The Shield : i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale reflected

i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale reflected

Anyone else think that the show was eventually trying to get us very hard to get behind Dutch and root for him and see him as a truly likable character? I mean, he seemed to spend much of the series struggling with not getting enough respect from anyone in the Barn besides Claudette and taking the lion's share of the Strike Team's abuse whenever they decided to direct it at someone not in their gang. Then there was some particularly frightening scenes when he was trying to catch some infamous serial killers. And then in the finale, the ending they give him is basically a Disney fairy tale one next to what the Strike Team and others get. Which to me seems like they wanted to convince the audience that he deserved this very happy, by Shields standards, ending and we were ideally meant to get behind him. Is it just me?

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Considering he didn't do anything near what the Strike Team did, yeah, he deserved it.

Can't stop the signal.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale reflected

Jog my memory--how did the series end for Dutch? I remember the young serial killer wannabe trying to frame him.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

It was a somewhat upbeat ending because the rest of the endings - Mackey, Claudette, Ronnie, etc - were kinda a downer. I guess we were supposed to root for him - he was a good cop who was generally overshadowed by Mackey's showboating.

Mackey always had the limelight but maybe the message was that "good, honest detective skills" could be just as effective as the ST's aggressive tactics, and the department would continue to function with or without the ST.

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Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

It was implied that Dutch was about to get the kid to confess but it was not shown.




Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

But they got the kid to talk about his mom's clothes being burned. He shouldn't have known that as they never told him. He gave himself away, and that's how we know they were going to nail him.

Please stop.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I'm not sure why you feel it's a revelation that Dutch is meant to be sympathetic. Myself, and I assume most viewers, were behind him since the very beginning. I mean, he was one of the lead protagonists of the B story, week after week. He was a 'good guy' and the only bad thing he ever did is kill a stray cat. He was also an exceptional detective, a caring partner to Claudette, humble enough to pass on the Captain's job, smart enough to make Vic squirm, and an all-around underdog.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle


smart enough to make Vic squirm


I love that Vic gets worried Dutch is looking into the his schemes.

He may pick on Dutch and not respect him personally, but he respects his skills as a detective.

Can't stop the signal.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

That focker did the worst thing of the entire series. He killed a cat. He should by hung

Did anyone else think that he killed the kid's mom? When Claudette started vouching for him with the kid I thought for sure it was going to blow up in her face and we find out he actually did it.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Not at all.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Dutch killed the cat because he was driven by curiosity and his desire to be a better detective, I believe. The serial killer earlier had told him what it was like to watch an animal die, so Dutch, being Dutch, had to know for himself. He was obviously guilty about it afterwards, and even made up for it at the end of the season by adopting the runt kitten that nobody else wanted.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Meh...I thought the better ending for Dutch would have been the one where HE himself is revealed to be the killer of that lady and others. Imagine now if after his speech to Ronnie about "The last three years!" we were treated with a similar speech by someone else (Danny?) to Dutch about how they were investigating him all along and tied the murder of the lady to other murders that led them to Dutch. Yes, it would have been tragic, and a downer...but much more "Shield" like!

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Nah. The main focus of the Shield has always been Vic and the Strike Team.

Having Dutch be arrested would take the focus off what happened to Ronnie.

Can't stop the signal.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Honestly I thought he was the one who killed Rita.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Nonsense - that would be incredibly unShield-like! One of its great strengths is the reality of its characters, and that would have been totally OUT of character for Dutch - ask Claudette!

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I had the same feeling in the finale episode. If it wasn't for Claudette, defending Dutch all the time (her judgement being affected by a heavy stress), the ending tended to make us believe Dutch was the murderer, and the boy was innocent. That would have been consistent with most other main characters falling apart. Also, the cat killing and other weirdies from Dutch's past contribute to give Dutch a mysterious personality.

As said above, in the finale the writers didn't want to steal the show from the Strike team, especially Ronnie at the end, and didn't conclude on Dutch realities.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle


If it wasn't for Claudette, defending Dutch all the time (her judgement being affected by a heavy stress), the ending tended to make us believe Dutch was the murderer, and the boy was innocent. That would have been consistent with most other main characters falling apart.
But it wouldn't have been consistent with Dutch's character, which had been pretty well established over the past seven seasons. It was, what, three episodes earlier when he refused to help Billings with his little dirty deed? He didn't just refuse -- he balked at it. Because it was wrong.

I'm a bit amazed that people would take that from the conclusion of the show. I mean, aside from choking the poor widdle kitty and using a department computer to look at questionable material -- which simply had to be on the up-and-up as far as his explanation, if for no other reason than the alternative would be so brazen that it's practically a cry for help.

Having said that, I remember thinking that it would probably take more than Claudette stepping up on Dutch's behalf to remove the air of suspicion. But her words ring true. And all three of them know who the real killer is. He's going down.

At no time did I think Dutch killed the boy's mom. It would've been a cheap parlour trick tossed into an all-time-great series finale.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Well said, Sir! 😃

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle


I'm not sure why you feel it's a revelation that Dutch is meant to be sympathetic. Myself, and I assume most viewers, were behind him since the very beginning.


Yeah, Dutch was always my favorite character. I'm glad they never went through with that possible ending for the character I've heard they briefly tossed out.

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Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

No, Dutch was great, and even though I didn't like him for some reason when I first got into watching this, he grew on me. Vic and others treated him like garbage, and he was awkward at times, but he was a great detective. The most memorable scene was him getting the serial killer in an earlier season to admit killing 17 people, while the whole department watched in the other room. The words spoken to him about social awkwardness by the killer got to Dutch, so after being congratulated, he went out to his car and cried. Jay Karnes did an amazing job.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

If not for the fact that this was a Vic Mackie-centric show and made us as the viewer feel sympathy for Vic's corruption I don't think there was anything particularly unlikeable about Dutch to begin with. His detective skills were nothing short of awesome...his integrity unquestionable, and he had a solid work ethic...I just feel that the writers had to make him the "nerd" to Vic's "jock" hence the social awkwardness...the date-less wonder, and slightly creepy serial killer leanings that were written into his character...I prefer to remember the fear all the Strike Team felt once they knew that Dutch had even the slightest whiff of their shenanigans, they knew he would get to the bottom of things.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I honestly think as a show they were trying to tie up all loose ends. Dutch busting that budding serial killer, was their way of showing us how good of a detective he was. Even though he had problems of his own lol.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

@normrmf5889 Dutch busting that budding serial killer, was their way of showing us how good of a detective he was.
But Dutch didn't bust the budding serial killer Lloyd. That was one of the loose ends of the series.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

But they got the kid to talk about his mom's clothes being burned. He shouldn't have known that as they never told him. He gave himself away, and that's how we know they were going to nail him.

Please stop.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I agree. We were supposed to be happy that the good guys came out on top. Meanwhile, Dutch made my skin scrawl. I hated Claudette also but I think that is a testament to that woman being an great actor.

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Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

That was the genius of the writing and CCH's portrayal (similar to ADA Patterson in SOA).

Claudette was a hard-working, honest cop, who was courageous and admirable in her professional and personal life. But we were always led to root for Mackey - he was the Roadrunner to her Wiley Coyote but (unlike Bugs Bunny) we never longed for the pursuer to win!

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Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Dutch got to arrest Ronnie! LOL "For what?!"

Dutch: For the last three years!!

LOL


I think this is the episode of Three's Company where there is some kind of misunderstanding.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Dutch was a complex character played very well by Karnes. He was mostly sympathetic because he meant well and was a good detective. Yet, he had certain unsettling moments. He gave off creepy vibes to some of the women. And he killed a cat because he wanted to feel what a serial killer felt. Also, didn't the department find child porn on his work computer that he claimed he had downloaded for a "research project" no one knew about? At the end when the mother goes missing, I think for a moment you are supposed to wonder if Dutch had anything to do with it, since she had turned him down. But then it becomes clear, although not explicitly stated, that her son did it.

MOVIES BY THE MINUTE --> http://moviesbytheminute.blogspot.com

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

@nuclear-7 Well it worked on me. I liked Dutch from the moment he busted that smartass serial killer Sean Taylor while the strike team and some cops were watching them on CCTV (s01e10). One of my favorite scenes of the series.

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Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

@ajcdjb ...and Claudette wasn't that great herself.
Now you take that back!

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Dutch and Claudette were my favorite characters all through the series. I really disliked Vic at first (and never did grow that fond of him)and though he was the main focus the show wouldn't have been nearly as good without the decent human beings around him, going about their jobs honestly, to serve as a contrast.
Dutch and Claudette were the 'Dragnet' truth of police work vs. the 'action hero' antics of the Strike Team.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

lol Dutch chances of ever being liked by fans was thrown away when he killed that cat!

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I don't think Dutch was the (serial)killer, but he was most likely the one who could be such criminal. Who knows maybe looking into someones psychos psyche makes him do more than killing a cat. The fact that he didn't want to help Billings doesn't change anything-if he had done some crime, he wouldnt want any limelight.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Kurt Sutter wanted Dutch to be revealed at the end to have a torture studio in his basement.
Imagine if after the credits of the final episode we got an additional scene of Dutch leaving the station for the day, smiling and saying goodbye to a few colleagues, getting in his car, arriving home, whistling "Hungry Like the Wolf" as he enters, walking down the stairs to his basement and catching a quick glance of some chains on the walls and hearing a low, muffled groan..........
Fade to black.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Good thing Kurt Sutter didn't get his way, because that would have been stupid.

Please stop.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I agree, and it would have taken something away from the whole series. Part of what drove Dutch's character was his always feeling inferior to Vic. I'm currently rewatching it from Season 1 (for about the 4th time), and he got that win with the serial killer in the first season by basically flipping the narrative of being a wimp. The other cops gathered to watch him being savaged, and ended up applauding him. But that respect did not last because he was so awkward and nerdy. He was suspicious of Vic from the beginning, and Vic was able to keep him on the defensive by playing the alpha male, and Dutch could not compete on that level. Sure, he did some creepy and cruel things, was awkward and nerdy and got puffed up about his own intellect, and that undermined him, so Vic was able to play him, and use it against him.

But! In the end, he was the better detective, the better cop, the better friend, the better person, and it was clear he was all that from the beginning, if you pay attention. He didn't have Vic's gang of toughs, Vic's prostitute informants, Vic's machismo, Vic's charisma, or Vic's flexible morality. And yet in the end he very nearly won; I'd argue he had a moral victory at least, along with Claudette. Their friendship is one of the greatest things about the show, the ups and downs of it, the way it winds up at the end.

Making him a creepy serial killer would have undone all of that and cheapened his character in exchange for easy thrills. If it was Kurt Sutter's idea, well, we saw what his unfettered ideas did to Sons of Anarchy, so I'm glad the other writers nixed it.

Dutch and Claudette were the heroes to Vic's anti-hero. Not because they were perfect or unflawed at all, but because they were sincerely trying to do good and failing as often as not. To have made Dutch into a monster would have just nulled all of it.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I always felt bad for Dutch, because his love for Claudette always seemed unrequited. Dude loves her to pieces (not romantically) and it just doesn't seem like she cares as much as he does. It makes me sad....

Please stop.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

She was a bit cruel to him in the beginning. To be fair he made himself an easy target by being a pompous ass. I think by the end, though, she'd come to appreciate him. I'm rewatching for the first time in years and am still not done with Season 1, so I may change my mind, but in my memory the impression I had in the final season was that she had come to love him back. I don't think it was ever a romantic love, just a deep mutual respect, trust, and affection that went up and down, was shattered and repaired, and in the end was as solid as a friendship could be.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I also just gotta say this... I remember after watching the finale of The Shield, watching an online finale with the cast, and Michael Chiklis made a point of calling out Jay Karnes for his performance. Until that moment I did not know who Jay Karnes was; I had him confused with another actor. Then Dutch stepped forward looking very sheepish and I thought, WOW. Of course. How could I have missed that.

I have seen him in something else since as a villain -- Burn Notice maybe? -- that's a show I just have on in the background -- and he can portray sinister very well. To be vulnerable, defensive, creepy, compassionate, heroic, weird, funny, and brave all in the same character -- well Bravo, Jay Karnes. He, like Walton Goggins, should have been up for an Emmy.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Karnes was a villain is Son of Anarchy and Burn Notice.

And while Claudette does come to respect Dutch, she never seems to love and care about him the way he does about her. It's not a huge thing they make a big deal about on the show, but it's there, and it's actually a bit heartbreaking when you realize it. Pay attention on your re-watch season 4 onward.

Please stop.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

Could be, and I will. As I've started this rewatch I'm just blown away all over again how *beep* fantastic this show is. The Shield has (IMO) been unfairly overlooked in the discussion of the "Golden Age of Television". Not entirely of course; it's been analyzed in books about the subject. And yet it seems to have fallen into some weird crack -- just after Sopranos and just before social media/streaming, or something. It deserves to be up there right along with Breaking Bad and well above The Walking Dead.

Whatever the case I think Dutch was a bit like Sol Starr of Deadwood -- kind of a quiet wonder, but even better, because the character of SS, though fantastic, was never explored the way Dutch was. I just love his character.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle


The Shield has (IMO) been unfairly overlooked in the discussion of the "Golden Age of Television".
Agreed. My wife and I are currently rewatching it as well. We are on Season 3.

Please stop.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I think they did that the whole show. Yeah, he was a dork sometimes, but Dutch was always awesome. The way I wanted him to succeed in season 1 when he nailed that serial killer made me root for Dutch almost all the time for the rest of the series.

Please stop.

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

My only annoyance with Dutch in the beginning was his need for glory and credit. Once he matured beyond that (with the positive influence of Claudette) he really grew as a character. And I liked him because of how mean Vic and Shane could be to him. I always root for the underdog.

"They have a grill, it's this grill. Now you have it...it's called America."

Re: i think the show wanted us to really like Dutch and the finale refle

I loved Dutch.

I had first seen the actor on Burn Notice where he plays a great villain.
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