North & South : Writers & Readers Café

Welcome to the "Writers & Readers Caf"! This is a cozy, warm place where those who enjoy writing and those who enjoy reading can meet for fellowship and great coffee!

Writers, feel free to share aspects of your craft with the other caf patrons! There's no limit to what we can learn from each other. Possible points of discussion?

-Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time. How have your surroundings influenced your ideas?
-Favorite genres.
-Narration vs. Dialogue: finding the balance.
-Getting to the point: more is not necessarily better.
-Engaging the reader in the story.
-Vocabulary: plain or fancy
-Love scenes
-Writer's Block
-Personal challenges.
-Etc, etc!

Readers, please share your personal favorites, published or unpublished!
-Tell us why you chose these works. How did the story/writer make you feel?
-Share styles and genres that you prefer and those you don't.
-Share your ideas for new plots that you would like to see attempted (this is how I got started).
-If you've just read a book/short story/passage particularly well written, please share it (if space allows) and tell us why you approve.
-Etc. etc.

These are just a few ideas, ladies! The possibilities are endless! Feel free to offer suggestions!

Hopefully, this caf will flourish; however, to differentiate it from the Homeless Thread, perhaps we should try to involve some aspect of writing or reading in our posts and save broader discussion for Cat's HT.

Well, I'm heading over to get a hot mugful of java! How about you?

Hmmmno one is here yetI think I'll have a scone with my coffee.

I'm currently perusing the "choose your ending" "Lost in Austen" e-book. It's amusing but very complicatedOh here's someone now!

Hello! Glad you could make it!

Thanks for starting this thread Pat. I am making a quick morning visit to the Cafe before work.

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Readers, please share your personal favorites, published or unpublished

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Well at the moment I am still completely lost in the world of the Outlander books.

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-Tell us why you chose these pieces. How did they make you feel?

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Well, I heard about the TV series first on the C19 Board because Graham McTavish had been cast in it. But it was you Pat who first mentioned how much you loved the books and got me interested in reading them. I am a big fan of time slip stories having read quite a few Barbara Erskine books, but these had completely passed me by. They have now become my favourite book series. They sometimes drive me mad with the inconsistencies but Diana Gabaldon is such a wonderful story teller and she really draws you into this world so that you feel like you are in a bubble when you are reading. She is a very descriptive writer. I find her books dramatic but also funny and romantic. I love reading the drama but also the mundane day to day stuff. I find her characters so well written, very human and three dimensional. And to top it off she has created two wonderful lead characters in Jamie and Claire. Jamie has rapidly become one of my favourite period drama heroes. I adore him.

Thank you, Pat for starting this thread.

"Writers & Readers Caf"
Good title!and, double latte with coconut flavour right next to me, I'll get started with a provoking question:

Is fan fiction 'creepy'?

This is not my idea, mind you. Someone over at the Outlander board said that they'd find fan fiction creepy (in a thread about copyright issues).

Now, I do sometimes feel a bit of an imposter because I freely help myself to all the wonderful N&S character backgrounds created by Gaskell, and by the actors (and everybody else who participated in the process) of the mini-series, and just start happily writing away without doing the groundwork first

But on the other hand I believe that without N&S I would likely never have started writingand writing in English, as to that. So, to me fan fiction is simply a good way for a newbie of getting creative without having to bother about the context first. And don't we all remember with a shudder the terribly nave compositions we did in our schooldaysbecause creating interesting yet convincing backgrounds is really, really hard.


So, I come to the next question:

Why is there so much fan fiction about N&S?

considering that the book is mostly unknown even in English speaking countries (and as for beyond; there has never been a German translation, for example), and even many of the mini-series' audience came across it only by accident?

What do you thinkwhat is it in N&S that inspires creativity?


On a final notefor now:

To writeor not to write

Do give it a try, everyone, by all means! I know from my own beginnings that one tends to be very self-conscious at first ("The stuff I'm writingit's never up to standard! People will just roll their eyes at meif not laugh outright!"), but frankly, these days I just don't care one way or another; I find too much pleasure in the process of writing, and to have these plot lines, dialogues, and characters crop up in my mindsometimes virtually out of nowhereis too much fun to miss. So I keep writing, and postingand I hope that the odd reader enjoys my stories, too.

I'm sure that there is much hidden talent on this board. We have lots of gems over at the "Short Stories and Poetry Wanted!!!!" thread. Laura with her limericks and haiku; and just recentlywith "Guardian Angels"she has given us a glimpse of her skill in writing prose.
Lois posted a wonderful haunting poem about George Thornton (late father of John), and I should wish that she'd eventually find her way towards writing more about himI'd love to hear his side of the story!
Ima posted stories before; I hope that, once she's well again (We are thinking of you, Ima. Get better soon!) and her life is back on track, she will have another go at it.

And as for all the occasional visitors and "lurkers" please come forward, and join in!


EDIT: Morning, Laura! Parallel posts once again

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They [the Outlander books] sometimes drive me mad with the inconsistencies but Diana Gabaldon is such a wonderful story teller and she really draws you into this world

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It's often in the quiet scenes where her style of writing really shines. And she writes wonderful dialogues, with thoughts weaving back and forth, and often taking an unexpected twist I find that very inspiring. And I just love the humour in her books, as well.

I love your list of possible topics, Pat! First thoughts, though some points definitely require a more detailed answer or rather a proper discussion in the future

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-Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time. How have your surroundings influenced your son's will?

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(Now what do you mean by that last question, Pat? Is this an English / American figure of speech?)

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-Favorite genres.

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As they come, and as the character and situation requires them. Personally, I love to try my hands on something different every so often (in particular with the short stories).

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-Narration vs. Dialogue: finding the balance.

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Definitely dialogues, the more the better!If only because the language in dialogues is more simple, which helps to obscure my shortcomings in the English language.

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-Getting to the point: more is not necessarily better.

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I suppose it's good to bear in mind that prospective readers of fan fiction do read fan fiction because they love the original, and can't get enough of it. So we can safely assume that readers are familiar with both the original story and the character backgrounds. Which is a great advantage in writing short stories, because we can just plunge headlong into the story without wasting time on tedious explanations.

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-Engaging the reader in the story.

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To tell the truth, I don't write for any potential readers, I write for myselfwhatever I would like to read

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-Vocabulary: plain or fancy

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ENGLISH!Which says it all in my case Well, there is a bit more to say about writing in a foreign language. I'll have to think it over, though

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-Love scenes

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Oh gosh! Worst thing to write!Not the kissing part, that's fairly straightforward, but the getting there; what draws two people to each other, what's the attraction?and how to put it in words to make it appear credible?

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-Writer's Block

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Nope. Haven't experienced that yet. But then there's no pressure on me no audience whose expectations I'd have to meet, no deadlines, no pressure to get the next chapter finished at long last (if only, because I never post a story before all of it is written and at least roughly edited).

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-Personal challenges.

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Constant.

and finally, as an addition to the list:
-Research and historical accuracy
-Methods of writing: chronological (from A to Z) vs. episodic (in 'bits and pieces')
-Character-centred vs. plot-driven

Hi Laura and Birds! Congratulations for being the first visitors to the Caf! A complementary pastry for you both!

I'm on my way out the door and will drop in later. You've given me much to think about!

Before I go, however

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-Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time. How have your surroundings influenced your son's will?

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I have NO IDEA why or how I typed those words!!! I remember hurrying to get the cafe post started before I left work last night. Perhaps I typed something that was playing on the radio? I honestly was shocked to see those words!

Your question made me chuckle, Birds, since I thought you were referring to: "'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash" , then I saw the rest of my comment and my jaw dropped!

I am losing it!!!!

Meet you here later, ladies!

Quick reply.

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It's often in the quiet scenes where her style of writing really shines. And she writes wonderful dialogues, with thoughts weaving back and forth, and often taking an unexpected twist I find that very inspiring. And I just love the humour in her books, as well.

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Oh yes, and as I said I love how she makes even the mundane daily life occurrences so interesting. I think it is these scenes which helps make the characters so human to me. And I love the humour in these books best of all, it really helps balance out the bad things that happen.

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Recall that I am 'influenced by my son's will'sounds like the plot of a creepy story, eh?

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and whose story could that possibly bewithin the N&S universe???

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I had not expected you to respond to all of my suggestions right away!

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I know, only most of them instantly rang a bell! But there is still so much more to say about most points


I've changed the title once again not everybody is into Outlander, but most people have something to say about 'escape literature'.

Back to Outlander first

Does your Kindle edition of book 6 contain the interview with DG in the appendix too, Laura? The one where she talks about her method of writing? we talked about that before, I recallHere's the link
http://www.imdb.com/board/10417349/board/thread/245090607?d=245466178#245466178
but I also remember another thing DG said in that interview, namely that her book series was the first to her knowledge which explored the lives of a married couple at length. And that's another thing I like about Outlander and DG's writing, that she explores into some depth what might make a relationship work over the years
Anyway. I don't know about DG's personal knowledge, but upon reading this part in the interview I've been vividly reminded of a French 13 part book series (started in the 1950ies), also historical fiction and about a married coupleit was a big noise over here in the 1970ies and 80ies when a couple of sequels were published: Anglique.
http://www.imdb.com/board/10417349/board/thread/247488870
There's no time travel element in that, but the plot shows some remarkable parallelsmore in the reading than in the Wiki summary which might be pure chance, and I don't know if this ever was a bestseller in Anglo-Saxon countries.

Some more multi-book escape literature (excluding crime fiction, because there the choice is endless):

EDIT: The All Souls Trilogy (Deborah Harkness) - time travel and fantasy. Laura had mentioned it first on the HT thread last year
Harry Potter - of course
Poldark (Winston Graham), I suppose although I never got further than book 1. How do you actually like it, Pat?

What else?

Pat said:

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I've never read a body of work that affected me so deeply as 'Outlander'. The length and breadth of this story is epic; in consequence, the author has been able develop the main characters to such an extent that, to many, it seems as if they really exist(ed)! Now there's a story teller to emulate!

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I totally agree Pat. I have never been so affected by a body of work either. And whatever her faults DG is one of the most talented storyteller I have ever read. I will always love her for creating Jamie alone.

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I intend to re-read the books this fall/winter, so I'm sure other things will occur to me; the inconsistencies, for example. I don't remember noticing them during the reading, but perhaps I just forgot!

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Well, I think I forget a lot but there a few name changes and continuity errors.

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Does your Kindle edition of book 6 contain the interview with DG in the appendix too, Laura? The one where she talks about her method of writing? we talked about that before, I recallHere's the link

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Yes, this is spooky, but I was just coming on here to say the same thing. Especially when one of the topics you suggested was:

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-Methods of writing: chronological (from A to Z) vs. episodic (in 'bits and pieces')

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I remembered when I read that interview about how you talked about it somewhere and said that you wondered if her writing in isolated episodes may contribute to the continuity errors and I agree. btw Thanks for finding the link. I thought it was somewhere in the HT thread, not the Outlander one, so I would never have found it. LOL! I wonder if any other writers work like this.

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..but I also remember another thing DG said in that interview, namely that her book series was the first to her knowledge which explored the lives of a married couple at length. And that's another thing I like about Outlander and DG's writing, that she explores into some depth what might make a relationship work over the years

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Again, I was about to say the same. How refreshing not just to read the story of how a couple maintain a good marriage over the course of a lifetime but also just the fact of reading about an older hero and heroine, which doesnt happen often. I wonder if younger readers are still interested in reading these stories as the couple get older.

Did you read that interesting intervier at the end of the 6th book as well Pat?

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The All Saints Trilogy (Deborah Harkness) - time travel and fantasy.

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Yes, another favourite of mine. Have you read these Pat?

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Yes, this is spooky, but I was just coming on here to say the same thing.

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Telepathy???

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I remembered when I read that interview about how you talked about it somewhere and said that you wondered if her writing in isolated episodes may contribute to the continuity errors and I agree.

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The reason why I thought so was that I did write all my own multi-chapter stories in 'bits and pieces', and it took me ages to weed out all the errors which occurred in consequence (that's another of the reasons why I edit so often after posting) and to imagine what it takes to find all the continuity errors in a novel ten times as long (or more), if that's your method of writing! Little wonder some remained in the published book On the other hand, I think writing in episodes helps to create scenes that stand outand those are the scenes that stay with us readers in these big books.

Sorry, I got the title of Deborah Harkness's book series wrong again, it's All Souls Trilogy not All Saints TrilogyI get that wrong every time, because while both are Catholic religious holidays, only All Saints' Day is celebrated throughout Germany, so it's the better known amongst the two.

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On the other hand, I think writing in episodes helps to create scenes that stand outand those are the scenes that stay with us readers in these big books.

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I agree.

On the subject of time slip stories, another one I liked a lot was 'Banishment' by Dinah Lampitt. In this one a thoroughly modern woman is hyponotized and finds herself in the body of a younger woman at the time of the English Civil War.

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Sorry, I got the title of Deborah Harkness's book series wrong again, it's All Souls Trilogy not All Saints Trilogy

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It shows I was half-asleep this morning because I didn't even notice. On this subject I hope the BBC get around the making this series soon. I'm still hopeful for RA to get the part of Matthew Clairmont.

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How refreshing not just to read the story of how a couple maintain a good marriage over the course of a lifetime but also just the fact of reading about an older hero and heroine, which doesnt happen often. I wonder if younger readers are still interested in reading these stories as the couple get older.

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Those younger than 30 probably think (just like I did at that age) that people's life freezes at about 40, and nothing much happens thereafter worth the tellingexcept for corrupt politicians. But if they consider Claire and Jamie an oddity, then there is always the next Outlander generation (Bree et al.) for them to identify with

Being now 48 myself, I'm ever so grateful for an older hero and heroine who still have an interesting life, in every respect.

I agree that it's refreshing to read a piece about a couple who love deeply through the years or even a piece about an older couple who fall in love. I loved writing 'A Song and a Dream' for that reason, though it's temporarily hidden from view here, it's my favorite story (of mine, that is). I once asked my mother how old she 'felt on the inside'. Without hesitation, she replied 22 or 23. She was 90 at the time. Who we are inside doesn't alter so much, though, hopefully, we've grown in experience and wisdom.

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Those younger than 30 probably think (just like I did at that age) that people's life freezes at about 40, and nothing much happens thereafter worth the telling-

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I remember thinking that as well, Birds, but how wrong I was

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I agree that it's refreshing to read a piece about a couple who love deeply through the years or even a piece about an older couple who fall in love.

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Also a couple who meet when young, survive such a long separation (still loving each other) and then when reunited love continue to love each other as an older couple just as deeply.

Birds asked:

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Why is there so much fan fiction about N&S?

considering that the book is mostly unknown even in English speaking countries (and as for beyond; there has never been a German translation, for example), and even many of the mini-series' audience came across it only by accident?

What do you thinkwhat is it in N&S that inspires creativity?

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I agree with what you said to Pat the other day on her fanfic thread, that because of the story's abrupt ending (in the book and the series) it feels that there is unfinished business and that John and Margaret's story has just begun with so much more to tell.

The first place I read N&S fanfic, apart from on here, was over on the C19 website and there is just tons of it over there, more than any other kind. Most of the continuing stores follow on from the series, but some the book. Also, as well as stories where writers continue the story, there are ones which re-tell it in different times and settings. There just seems to be something about this couple and their story that people love and are inspired by.

Birds said:

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This is not my idea, mind you. Someone over at the Outlander board said that they find fan fiction creepy (in a thread about copyright issues).

Now, I do sometimes feel a bit of an imposter because I freely help myself to all the wonderful N&S character backgrounds created by Gaskell, and by the actors (and everybody else who participated in the process) of the mini-series, and just start happily writing away without doing the groundwork first

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I, too, have heard this line of talk on other threads over the years, Birds. Basically, they say, "Why can't you write an original story and not rest on the laurels of someone else?" Nine times out of ten, these comments are made by those who haven't written anything and have no idea how challenging it is.

I wager that a majority this generation's top writers' early attempts utilized varying degrees of imitation of their favorite writers' works, be it by imagining a sequel, adopting a similar plot line or by borrowing an interesting feature from the original they love. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, it is said. We have to begin somehow. Like young children, we toddle along with one hand gripping our parent's finger, until we learn to balance, to walk and then, to run. Rare is it that someone's first attempts are exceptional. The goal for most of us, I assume, is to improve in skill and, perhaps, to attempt an original work; but until then, we practice; and practice, hopefully, makes perfect.

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So, I come to the next question:

Why is there so much fan fiction about N&S?

considering that the book is mostly unknown even in English speaking countries (and as for beyond; there has never been a German translation, for example), and even many of the mini-series' audience came across it only by accident?

What do you thinkwhat is it in N&S that inspires creativity?

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This is only a theory, but I doubt we would have seen the flurry of N&S based stories if the tv mini-series had never been attempted and if we did not live during this age of global communication. First, that visually compelling, brooding tale of misery and unrequited love accomplished most of it. Not to mention the magnetic performance of one Richard Armitage. The screen story (and he) captured the hearts of many a fair lady in a way that the book - as gripping as it is - could not do to such a limited audience. Then, in consequence of N&S's first airing on tv and magnified during this age of blogs and websites and video streams, the magic happened. Viewers(and the media) began discussing the amazing series and encouraging others to view it. For some, writing a sequel to the series for their friends was a natural desire to prolong its mesmerizing effect. As in my case, and in yours, Birds, I think, we received wonderful encouragement to continue andVoila! Those who never considered writing found they could produce something of interest, even of quality, though not yet ready to go without the comfort of the structure of the original story. But one day.an original story idea arrives unbidden!

Laura said:

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I agree with what you said to Pat the other day on her fanfic thread, that because of the story's abrupt ending (in the book and the series) it feels that there is unfinished business and that John and Margaret's story has just begun with so much more to tell.

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This is probably true, but I couldn't help thinking of one of the 'alternative endings' to P&P in the e-book,"Lost in Austen" where Elizabeth decides not to marry Darcy because every romance she'd ever read ended with a proposal, a marriage and a big THE END - as if life for the heroine ceased to exist after the marriage.

Almost all romance movies/books end quite abruptly when the main characters come together, resolve their differences, declare their love and marry. There was something exceptional about N&S, however. Personally, I think it was the darkness of the drama, especially RA's riveting performance, which struck a specific chord with the public and made us not want to leave him and Margaret ever.

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This is only a theory, but I doubt we would have seen the flurry of N&S based stories if the tv mini-series had never been attempted and if we did not live during this age of global communication.

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Of course. Fan fiction is very much a phenomena of the 21st century and came up on a larger scale with the internet and social media. The TV series in 2004 hit a nerve at the right timeand definitely largely due to RA.

But still, Margaret Hale's story is incomplete in a way that e.g. Elizabeth Bennet's or Jane Eyre's are not. Those novels give us an outlook on their heroines' married lives in the end, however short. But even if this wasn't so, there are still not as many loose ends as in Margaret's case The latter will have to come to terms not only with married life, but with a less than enthusiastic mother-in-law, Milton society (where she'd been an outsider before) and making friends there (apart from Nicholas and Mary), plus finding some occupation for herself (I just can't see her as a full-time housewifeshe is a 'do-gooder', after all).

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But still, Margaret Hale's story is incomplete in a way that e.g. Elizabeth Bennet's or Jane Eyre's are not.

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Yes, I agree. But also, John's story as well. We want to know if he will rebuild Marlborough Mills back to its former glory.

N&S fanfic was the first that I read. I just couldn't get enough of it, especially the continuing story ones because I just wanted to know what happened next.

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Yes, I agree. But also, John's story as well. We want to know if he will rebuild Marlborough Mills back to its former glory.

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Yes, of course we want to know that. And also how he fares with suddenly having two strong-minded women not only in his life but under his roof Will it all turn out well, or will he feel stuck between a rock and a hard place?

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Yes, of course we want to know that. And also how he fares with suddenly having two strong-minded women not only in his life but under his roof Will it all turn out well, or will he feel stuck between a rock and a hard place?

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Yes, I like to think whilst trying not to get stuck in the middle he would take the side of his new wife over his mother, especially while she adjusts to living with Mrs T.

I like to imagine John as a father as well. From what we see of the interaction with young Tommy in the series, I bet he will make a great one.

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I like to imagine John as a father as well.

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and thers's that. Do you happen to know any N&S fan fiction which goes that far into the future, Laura? (thinking not of babies but school age kids, who are a very different challenge, after all )

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Do you happen to know any N&S fan fiction which goes that far into the future, Laura?

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Not off the top of my head. The stories I've read don't tend to go that far into the future. 'A Heart For Milton' by Trudy Brasure has a epilogue where the children are older but it is only short and doesn't really go into any great detail.

(Outwardly) tough guys and kids Which brings us back to OutlanderQuite a few of my favourite scenes from the books are those with Jamie and some children; either strange ones, his nieces and nephews, or his grandson and those few scenes with his own son William, of course.

I agree. I think DG writes children very well and the scenes of Jamie with children are always a joy. Such a shame we never got to see him interact with Brianna as a child as well.

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Also a couple who meet when young, survive such a long separation (still loving each other) and then when reunited love continue to love each other as an older couple just as deeply.

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Yes, that too, Laura! I had an aunt who, after being a widow for 15 years, received a phone call from her first boyfriend as a teenager. They eventually, married, fifty years after their early romance - not quite the story of passion of Jamie and Claire, but early love can survive and resurface in the latter years.

That's a lovely story, Pat. All the more so because it's real.

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That's a lovely story, Pat. All the more so because it's real.

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Which story is that, Birds? The one about my aunt? Yes, it was considered unusual in our family that she was still on the mind of an old boyfriend, Gus, after so many years. Gus was her third husband (#1: divorce; #2, deceased; #3, deceased; and then there was her 'live in boyfried' at age 86 , Chris, deceased). Aunt Rita went through husbands/beaux like paper towels!

ETA: I'm sure that bit of info ruined the loveliness of her story.

Uuuh better and betterA real femme fatale! Though admittedly, the loveliness of the story has suffered a little just now

So much food for thought in your suggestions for possible topics of discussion, Pat I've got a few ideas on the following points, and how they concern me:

- Narration vs. dialogue: finding the balance
- Vocabulary: plain or fancy
- Character-centred vs. plot-driven (as an additional topic)

For me, all these are closely linked.

It won't come as a surprise if I say that I lack the vocabulary, let alone the actual skill, to write long descriptive or introspective passages or do some in-depth character analysis anyoneincluding myselfwould care to read for entertainment (with the exception of doing awkward/peevish girls having had much experience at being a wallflower in my own teenage years), so I simply have to 'make do' with plot-based storytelling which as a rule seems to come with an emphasis on dialogue rather than narration.

And I just love dialogues and not only because the language in dialogues tends to be more simple. It's rather that I feel the story comes alive and 'immediate' with the first dialogue; before that it's mostly prelude, however beautifully written. But that's personal preferences.

I suppose, sometimes limitations can be an asset. A plain, or even blunt, language is one of the restrictions to be faced when writing in a foreign language (unless someone's actually bi-lingualwhich I am not!). But although originating from necessity, it may be the right 'voice' for some storiesbut not for others So I better keep my hands off writing what requires a more intuitive native speaker's touch, and I try to concentrate on those things in a story that work independently of the actual languagesuch as plot, structure, and pace.

I'm not keen on long drawn out narrative, but I enjoy good descriptive writing. Going back to DG, that is something I love about her writing and I think it is that which really helps pulls me into her world, as she describes things so well. But I also love dialogue for the same reason you say Birds, that it makes the story more alive.

When Cat and I began writing 'side by side', I couldn't help remarking at our different styles. My comfort zone was explaining the thoughts/feelings of a character through detailed narration. Hopefully, I didn't bore anyone; though, I received many compliments back then that it was as if I 'lived in John's head'. I felt I did live there, so well did I experience his emotions.

Cat, on the other hand, was the queen of dialogue. It poured out of her like water from a waterfall. That's how we grew to know and love her characters so well. I was a bit envious and really tried to interject more dialogue, while she tried to include more narration. I think she succeeded in her quest better than I did! Catriona, in real life, was quite chatty. While I am more of a thinker/listener. Each style has its place if it holds the reader's attention, but there's always room for experimentation and growth no matter the style.

There is a German proverb which roughly translates into, "Sometimes you can't see the forest for all the trees in your way", meaning that occasionally the small details arrest your attention too much, and so you can't see the general idea.

This is what often happens with me when reading English narration, or in an extensive discussion in English. Descriptive writing tends to include a lot of unfamiliar vocabulary, along with frequently quite complex structures. So, a lot of my attention is required to look up the actual words, or make sense of individual sentencesand this way I often grasp at isolated ideas but fail to get the big picture Add to that missing punctuation, and you've got me lost at sea!

So, I struggle with difficulties your average English reader doesn't encounter, Pat That's just to illustrate that you shouldn't mind me and my opinions in matters of narration vs. dialogue.

And I agree with you on writing inside one's comfort zone (the odd challenge notwithstanding)there simply is no other way to do it, or not for a newbie, at least

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My comfort zone was explaining the thoughts/feelings of a character through detailed narration. Hopefully, I didn't bore anyone; though, I received many compliments back then that it was as if I 'lived in John's head'. I felt I did live there, so well did I experience his emotions.

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I loved/love both Cat and your styles of writing. In particular I think yours works so incredibly well for 'Homeward Bound'. It is certainly not boring. I remember one of my first comments was that I always wondered what was going through John's mind during that journey and you explained it perfectly.

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Testimonies of 'sudden inspirations' that come in a flash; or those that evolve over time. How have your surroundings influenced your ideas?

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Probably the most natural way for anyone to start with N&S fan fiction is to image what happens next, right after that gorgeous kiss. While they are on the train. When they arrive in Milton. How Hannah and Margaret's relatives react to the news That is, if one hasn't read any N&S fan fiction yet.

Once you have, you can't help realising that a lot of fan fictions are sequels, starting right at that point. And that's when things get less straightforward

I was lucky to have made a start on my own N&S universe before I ever read any fan fiction about Margaret and John (and Hannah) but I have read most of what's on this board since (though not all of it 'in depth'), and a couple of others besides. So, these daysunless they tangent my existing storiesI tend to steer clear of the main characters and write about the secondary ones and fortunately many of them are depicted beautifully in the novel and/or the TV series. That's why I took on Fanny, for example; no-one else here seemed particularly keen on her!

(EDIT: I deleted what I'd written on inspiration for short stories here there's quite enough in the next post.)


What have been your experiences with finding inspirations, Pat? You mentioned before that someone came to you with the general storyline for 'Unfailing Love' but I can't remember any particulars.

And how do those of you who mostly do poetry get started?

I've been thinking some more about 'inspirations'

I rarely take inspiration from day-to-day occurrences in my life, I think. I mostly start with just wanting to write, and with deciding on the character to write about, and the story more or less comes in a flash. So, in retrospect it's difficult to tell what actually influenced my stories; except in the case of my two most recent 'shorts'.

In another post I already mentioned how exactly Beekeeper (featuring Dixon) came about:
http://www.imdb.com/board/10417349/board/thread/178532505?d=246102110#246102110

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Anyway, here's the story behind the story

I actually felt like trying to write a detective story for some time nowand I wondered if there could be one hidden somewhere in N&S

So I came up with that picture in my mind of Dixon sneaking along the streets after Leonards, like a Victorian Miss Marple (Margaret Rutherford kind of style). I knew what she was to discoverbecause what else was there?and I even had the pastries in place. What I didn't have was a story worth the telling.

So I thought that I'd just keep it as a fragment for future reference

While checking on the phrases and proverbs I had used (I generally do this to avoid absurd misquotes) I realised that I actually had several 'bee' expressions amongst them: 'bee-line', 'bee in her bonnet' and 'bee's knees'. Now, 2 may still be random, but 3 is definitely a pattern.

It looked like I had bees in my storyfor what it was worth.

But since the bees had invaded, I thought I'd better check them up on Wikipedia, too. And there I came across that link for 'Telling the bees' and suddenly I did have a story, after all!

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And with the latest one Once I'd settled on the character and a very general outline, two literary references popped up. And so, Mr Bell's story The Southern Cross was effectively inspired by a quote from the book, and fragments of a German poem:

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Well! He had known what love wasa sharp pang, a fierce experience, in the midst of whose flames he was struggling! but, through that furnace he would fight his way out into the serenity of middle age,all the richer and more human for having known this great passion.

(John Thornton in N&S, chapter 40 'Out of Tune')

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As every blossom fades
and all youth sinks into old age,
so every life's design,
each flower of wisdom,
every good attains its prime
and cannot last forever.

A magic dwells in each beginning,
protecting us,
tells us how to live.

Maybe death's hour too
will send us out new-born
towards undreamed lands,
maybe life's call to us
will never find an end.

Courage my heart,
take leave and fare thee well.

Excerpts from 'Steps' / 'Stufen' (in one of its numerous English translations)
from "The Glass Bead Game" by German poet Hermann Hesse

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Research for The Southern Cross (I haven't deleted the bookmarks yet, so it has been easy to sum up):

- http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/royalmail.shtml
- "British Mercantile Houses in Buenos Aires, 1810-1880" by Vera Blinn Reber, p. 74 ff
- Various Wikipedia pages on: Royal Mail Steam Packet Company / RMS Amazon / Crux / Adam (see etymology)

I actually really like research because quite frequently it leads not only to an exciting discovery but to something which'bingo!'gives a whole new twist to the story and subsequently becomes an essential part of it

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As every blossom fades
and all youth sinks into old age,
so every life's design,
each flower of wisdom,
every good attains its prime
and cannot last forever.

A magic dwells in each beginning,
protecting us,
tells us how to live.

Maybe death's hour too
will send us out new-born
towards undreamed lands,
maybe life's call to us
will never find an end.

Courage my heart,
take leave and fare thee well.

Excerpts from 'Steps' / 'Stufen' (in one of its numerous English translations)
from "The Glass Bead Game" by German poet Hermann Hesse

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That poem is beautiful Birds.

Hermann Hesse became quite popular in the late 60ies and in the 70ies, in the wake of the student and esoteric movements As a writer of prose I find him a bit odd, but that particular poem is actually quite well-known, especially for the bit I'm going to put in italics.

Here's two very different English versions (both complete) of the same German poem, it's actually really difficult to translateThere's not even total agreement over the title; sometimes it's called 'Steps', and then again 'Stages' (both meanings being possible for the German title 'Stufen').

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Steps

Like ev'ry flower wilts, like youth is fading
and turns to age, so also one's achieving:
Each virtue and each wisdom needs parading
in one's own time, and must not last forever.
The heart must be, at each new call for leaving,
prepared to part and start without the tragic,
without the grief - with courage to endeavor
a novel bond, a disparate connection:
for each beginning bears a special magic
that nurtures living and bestows protection.

We'll walk from space to space in glad progression
and should not cling to one as homestead for us.
The cosmic spirit will not bind nor bore us;
it lifts and widens us in ev'ry session:
for hardly set in one of life's expanses
we make it home, and apathy commences.
But only he, who travels and takes chances,
can break the habits' paralyzing stances.

It might be, even, that the last of hours
will make us once again a youthful lover:
The call of life to us forever flowers
Anon, my heart: Say farewell and recover!

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Steps

At lifes each call the heart must be
prepared/ to take its leave and to
commence afresh,/ courageously
and with no hint of grief/ submit
itself to other, newer ties./ A magic
dwells in each beginning and/
protecting us it tells us how to live./

High-purposed we must traverse
realm on realm,/ cleaving to none as
to a home. The world/ of spirit
wishes not to fetter us/ but raise us
higher, further, step by step./

Scarce in some safe accustomed
sphere of life/ have we established
house, than we grow lax;/ he only
who is ready to inspan/ and journey
forth can throw old habits off./

Maybe deaths hour too will send us
out/ new-born toward undreamed-of
lands, maybe/ lifes call to us will
never find an end/ Courage, my
heart, take leave and fare thee well!

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I'm not sure about 'inspan', though. Anyway, there are many more versions to be found online, but these two show quite well how far apart some translations / interpretations are. The one I quoted in the other post is somewhere in between.

Thanks for sharing your 'inspiration' journey, Birds! So many comments rang a bell with me. It's exciting to learn that others have similar experiences!

Just quickly, since it's late:
-Loved the Bees story! Dixon as sleuth! But why not? The inquisitive, deductive mind comes in both sexes and in all walks of life. Perhaps she can team up with Officer Mason, of "a particularly handsome woman" fame and one of Cat's enhanced characters. I enjoyed the bee theme and the final disclosure of it's deeper reference.

-Research: since I don't have time to do much research, I cannot expound upon it as you have done, Birds. The only story for which I actually did research was MM&B: A Song and a Dream. I thoroughly enjoyed it, however. As you said, when researching, you often discover little nuggets of interest that can be incorporated into the story like when I learned of the statue of a woman in the harbor near Savannah Georgia. She gazes out to sea with one arm raised as if waving farewell to her lover, a sailor; and she continues to gaze and watch for his return. As I read it, her image jumped off the page and into my tale.

-Finally, in Herman Hesse's poem, I was shocked to see this:
Maybe deaths hour too will send us
out/ new-born toward undreamed-of
lands, maybe/ lifes call to us will
never find an end/ Courage, my
heart, take leave and fare thee well!

As my mother lay gasping her last breaths, the thought came to me that as we struggle to be born of our mother's wombs, being pushed and squeezed, possibly quite painfully, through a dark tunnel, to emerge into new life and a new world, we do likewise in our death passage, being pushed and squeezed through darkness until we emerge as pure spirit unencumbered by our frail shell, free, partakers of eternal life.

Thanks for sharing, ladies!

Thanks for those other translations Birds.

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As my mother lay gasping her last breaths, the thought came to me that as we struggle to be born of our mother's wombs, being pushed and squeezed, possibly quite painfully, through a dark tunnel, to emerge into new life and a new world, we do likewise in our death passage, being pushed and squeezed through darkness until we emerge as pure spirit unencumbered by our frail shell, free, partakers of eternal life.

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What a beautiful described analogy Pat. I remember watching my own mother's last breaths as she was dying and I find the way you have described death extremely comforting.

Thanks for sharing these very personal thoughts, Pat and Laura.

When my grandma was in her late 70ies she had a phase when she wouldn't like to invest in the future, both literally and figuratively. She didn't buy any nice new clothes, and she was depressed because everyone around her seemed to be ill and dying Fortunately, she soon overcame that phase and lived for another decade in reasonably good health.

Every so often I've seen elderly people, and especially when their health starts to fail, focus on what isn't possible for them anymore but ignore what would still there and within their reach, if only they kept an open mind but many just see death and disintegration all around them, and not the new life and possibilities cropping up at the same time.

That's what I like about this poem; it reminds us that life's never over, not until the hour of our deathand even death may only be the passage to a different new life.

You are so right Birds, even though I understand how elderly people feel that way. I'm glad that your grandma overcame it.

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That's what I like about this poem; it reminds us that life's never over, not until the hour of our deathand even death may only be the passage to a different new life.

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I love it. I think I prefer the first translation you posted best. So I have found the full version online and have printed off a copy to keep.

I haven't been terribly happy with either of the translations I found online, so I tried for my own version don't know it it's any better, though:



STEPS | STAGES

Like flowers fade and youth yields to age,
each stage of life attains its prime,
wisdom does flourish, virtue has its time,
but cannot last forever.

Bravely and without regrets
each moment get prepared to part,
be heartened for another start,
submit to different new-formed ties.

A magic dwells in each beginning,
protecting us, and helping us to live.

With easy hearts we move through places,
clinging to none as to our own,
the world of spirit sets us free to roam,
it elevates us, step by step.

At home in some accustomed sphere
of life, we soon grow slack.
Just those prepared not to look back
can throw old habits off.

Death's hour too might send us forth
newborn to some undreamt-of lands.
Maybe life's call on us just never ends
Courage my heart, take leavebe well!

That's wonderful. Thanks Birds.

Glad you like it, Laura. Trying to translate a poem is always some kind of interpretation, after all

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Glad you like it, Laura. Trying to translate a poem is always some kind of interpretation, after all

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And an excellent interpretation it was, Birds! I did a side by side reading of your version and the others and yours was very good! Thank you!


I can't even begin to understand how difficult a task it is to re~translate a German poem's English version into a more understandable English version AND RHYMING THE ENDINGS of the 2nd and 3rd lines of eacg stanza to boot!! Amazing!

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"As my mother lay gasping her last breaths, the thought came to me that as we struggle to be born of our mother's wombs, being pushed and squeezed, possibly quite painfully, through a dark tunnel, to emerge into new life and a new world, we do likewise in our death passage, being pushed and squeezed through darkness until we emerge as pure spirit unencumbered by our frail shell, free, partakers of eternal life."



What a beautiful described analogy Pat. I remember watching my own mother's last breaths as she was dying and I find the way you have described death extremely comforting.

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I'm so glad, Laura! I felt my eyes were opened during that time to what was really going on and my sadness was eclipsed by happiness for my mom!

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And an excellent interpretation it was, Birds!

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Thanks, Pat.

Hesse called 'Stufen' a philosophical poem, so I suppose its essence is more important than the outer form That's why I thought, taking some liberties should be acceptable.

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Research: since I don't have time to do much research, I cannot expound upon it as you have done, Birds.

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Of course, none of us are historians, Pat and what little time we have to spare we'd like to spend on writing rather than just looking up facts. And maybe it's just more important to do research with plot-driven writing, and if it's in your own nature to chafe a lot at inconsistencies.

After all, when writing character-centred it's essential to be able to empathise with the personalities of your characters rather than get their surroundings right to the last detail. Ultimately, people are people everywhereand throughout the agesso some stories are 'timeless'.

But there is a lot to be said in favour of research It certainly helped us over at the N&S book club to understand some aspects and implications of the story so much better. Lois in particular turned out to be 'wizard-woman' when it came to finding facts about Victorian times. And we realised that the past is a very strange place in some respects.

And with the times then having indeed been different from nowand some situations only working under the conditions of their 'proper' timethis discrepancy may just be what makes some stories worth the telling

(On the other hand, historical accuracyif taken very seriouslyis a minefield, and may easily counteract an intended story. )

The problems arising from fixing a story to a certain date

I always wondered why writers are so reluctant to mention a specific date in their storiesnow I know. It's the tendency to end up at the same time of year over and over again end of September, in my case.

In 'What If' 26th September 1851 was the day Fred left by train for London from Outwood station, where he was seen by JT embracing Margaret, thus giving himThorntonquite the wrong ideas. It was also the day when Leonards took his fall which eventually got Margaret under suspicion in the eyes of the law (or in Inspector Mason's eyes, at least).

Now, that date (the 26th, though no month was given) was fixed in the series, so I couldn't do anything about it. I could have made it October, I suppose. But the Great Exhibition closed already on 11th October, which would have put events on rather a tight schedule. And August didn't work because the riot was in Augustin the book, at least.

However, I'd given dates before in my stories

There is 27th September 1852 in 'The Long Way Round', when Margaret writes a letter to her cousin, telling her that she 'happened upon' (I love this expression!) Mr Thornton some days previously during a train stop half way back to London. Well, people do put a date at the top of their letters, don't they and as it originally was part of my first story, I felt free to choose any day I liked.

Finally, 29th September 1834 in 'Milton 1834'a Monday (I checked!) There had to have been a coroner's inquest after such a fateful incident, where a date would have been mentioned. Anyway, with that story I felt that events had to start out early in autumn, for what was to follow was meant to mirror the increasingly bleak time as the season progressed towards November. And being forced to make a new start in November is just about as bad as it can get